Talk me out of a HIS by Sunrun

[PiMatrix]

I think you captured one of the biggest drawbacks to the system and that's that it wont always work as intended. I'm not a fan of paying tax like most, so if the government offers me to spend my money on myself instead of giving it to who knows what, I'll choice to invest on myself.

Inadvertently you also highlighted the aspect that this stuff is no longer like simple trons flowing from point a to point b. All the computers involved are going to present challenges even to simple setups like the one you described. All the best with your install. I'm going with what I'd consider the simple button because as I mentioned, adding the tiny solar array is going to pay this system off (eventually) and a manual transfer switch and extension cable wont. I'm ok with complex, I'm not a fan of complicated... I think this system is the former and it takes alot of the hard work out of the hand of the consumer but I'm definitely going to be a test dummy being such an early adopter.

1) Sunrun is a problem laden company. Systems, management, procedures, and marketing looking for their next commission. Most workers are a victim of how company is run.
2) iF you are not in a rush there will be many V2X solutions out there 1Q23, e.g. here

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[PiMatrix]

holy crap… that’s terrible man. I get the feeling I’m going to experience the same and I’m gonna come back and be like y’all were all right!! And you told me so!! Any chance I get lucky and it all goes perfect?

No chance at all. Well, ok, based on stats on this board..... 1 in 30? There is a saying I heard recently that is wise. When a person (or company) shows you who they are, believe them. And give them three strike rule as well since stuff happens. Just be forewarned and have multiple options.

 

[cvalue13]

but I do wonder if they were really ready for this based on the comments I have read in numerous forums and private messages that my followers have sent me.

Having some experience with the business side of residential solar sales and installation, I know that business to be one of execution. There is no real magic to the sales or installation, and instead a business being a success or failure comes down to whether they can manage to call customers back sooner than the next guy, send a truck to a house sooner than the next guy, and complete the installation.

As it turns out, execution isn’t easy. Many such companies limp by or fail merely because they can’t hire, train, retain, and deploy sufficient or appropriate manpower.

At this point I think it’s clear SunRun was and remains almost completely incapable of execution.

And to the limited extent they’re capable, they are likely incentivized to prioritize those customers purchasing solar.

 

[merek]

These backup systems make no sense until we can get a firm standard implemented. Ford was very wishy-washy non-commital when directly asked if it's ISO 15118 or not. Without that, you will have spent $10k on a system that will not work with your next vehicle.

I just don't think the technology is stabilized enough for this to be viable at this time. $10k is competing with natural gas standby generators, which I know will be there when I sell my truck.

It's also kind of concerning the disconnect between Ford and their vendors. Will Ford support this setup in a few years if a part breaks? Siemens? Sunrun? It's not really clear who will be willing to provide product support longer term.

 

[cvalue13]

It's not really clear who will be willing to provide product support longer term.

i spent hours attempting to determine if the FCSP was OCPP compliant/compatible; one day in frustration I called Seimens, who said I had to ask Ford and that Ford could then ask Seimens, transferred to Ford who eventually sent me to SunRun, and after being transferred through 5 different SunRun “Ford team” members I was finally and unceremoniously then forwarded … back to Ford.

After that and several other days of attempts, I still don’t know if theFCSP is OCPP compliant

 

[Amps]

i spent hours attempting to determine if the FCSP was OCPP compliant/compatible

Thanks for doing that. I can’t wait to find out if the Lighting itself is compliant alsoo. The Emporia V2X (48A to load) will probably answer that question soon. The other mystery is Emporia’s pricing.

 

[ResidualJinx]

No chance at all. Well, ok, based on stats on this board..... 1 in 30? There is a saying I heard recently that is wise. When a person (or company) shows you who they are, believe them. And give them three strike rule as well since stuff happens. Just be forewarned and have multiple options.

This is exactly the approach I'm going to take with them, give them till X date to get my FCSP installed and make it a hard date or I'm out but give them enough time to make it work and set the expectation early. Then establish clear lines of communication to ensure they know that I'm perfectly fine walking away if forward progress isn't being made and then see where it goes but I do like the idea of a three strike rule!

I will say I'm super apprehensive of a company that's shows what I would consider to be predatory and/or gross negligence, because I'm pseudo-informed... but how many others did they use this same tactics to take advantage of their situation.

 

[ResidualJinx]

These backup systems make no sense until we can get a firm standard implemented. Ford was very wishy-washy non-commital when directly asked if it's ISO 15118 or not. Without that, you will have spent $10k on a system that will not work with your next vehicle.

I just don't think the technology is stabilized enough for this to be viable at this time. $10k is competing with natural gas standby generators, which I know will be there when I sell my truck.

It's also kind of concerning the disconnect between Ford and their vendors. Will Ford support this setup in a few years if a part breaks? Siemens? Sunrun? It's not really clear who will be willing to provide product support longer term.

These are all fantastic points, and I think this all goes toward the idea that Ford is WAY outside their wheelhouse on this one and picked a partner based primarily on size of market they have and not on customer satisfaction. Another few perfect examples of this is their OTH updates that are not addressing core issues to the truck (like why is the state of charge not always available on the dash Ford?!?!?!) or the complete tragedy that is the Ford Pass app to various aspects of the charging process on the FCSP.

What I will say is Ford has clearly made a decision to complete directly against Tesla and it's banking its brand name against it. That being said the big three are not the best known for being nimble and shifting their old SOPs toward the more constant innovation mantra of Tesla.

The only reason I'm considering this is because joining both solar + HIS is allowing me to be a guinea pig for at worst ~$6k, with the added benefit of producing a tiny amount of solar to offset this cost down the line. What I will say is if the uptake isn't high enough, which plenty of you have stated you're against.... then regardless how terrible the current iteration, there is less likely to be a next generation because Ford is in the business of making money and just like manual transmissions if they don't make money from them their is less likelihood of it surviving the competition and I'm a huge fan of someone else taking on Tesla because they're basically a monopoly right now lol

 

[Rancheroni]

Adding another data point:

I live in Socal, specifically San Bernardino county, in a mountain town, for two years. Have experienced no less than 6 blackouts each of the past two summers and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Also Temps are rising, even here in a snow town, summer temps have reached 90 to 100 degrees.

Last year I installed a 15kW solar array with 23 kwH battery backup last year. 42 panels and 2 13kW sunvault batteries in tandem. This neccesitates a panel upgrade as well. Total cost was 70k, less cash rebates of $23k, and tax rebate of 24% on total, my real cost was roughly $35K.

When power goes out, everything transitions to running on battery with the exception of certain power hungry applications such as oven and this is the worst offender, my central A/C. Luckily with the outages they are usually planned so I can blast the AC before I know the power will go out and the temp will usually stay comfortable until power gets restored.

Now as far as my personal take on your situation. I would not let my vehicle choice dictate which solar company to go with, regardless of how well the two companies (Ford and Sunrun) claim to integrate with each other. In my case, the ROI on my particular solar array, which is huge btw, not normal to have this big of a solar system, is 10 years, 5 years when I eventually get an EV.

In my opinion I suggest to look at other companies, specifically Sunpower. Then see if you can get some other tax credits to get a discounted or even free battery backup, that way your install will already be compatible with seamless battery power transition. Medical baseline credit, SGIP, etc. The solar reps know these well, consult with them. After installing this type of upgraded panel that can "talk" with the battery you can then integrate this with your EV battery more easily such as your Ford Lightning.

You may trade in the lightning for a refreshed mach-e or another EV from a different auto maker within 5 years, much sooner than you may move houses or break-even on solar. Don't let the more temporary or frequent purchase which depreciates (such as car) to dictate a more long term investment (such as home or solar which has ROI of usually 6-10 years and a useful life of 20+ years with 90% capability after 20 years).

The Ford lightning does have a huge battery at 90 something kwH for the standard range so this would likely power your house for a whole week, or a few days and still have some range for some errands so I do think having the capability to power your home is worth investigating. But I'd start looking from the solar companies point of view first, and then asking them how to integrate your EV, NOT the other way around.

Good luck!

 

[cvalue13]

In my opinion I suggest to look at other companies, specifically Sunpower.

If looking to other manufactures, I second a look at SunPower. It’s head-to-tail my (also gargantuan) 21.2kWh PV system, and in CA at least I believe they do their own installation as well (here in TX they don’t do their own installs).

that said it sounds like OP has an existing small system being added onto, so that may change calculus / decision tree

 

[PiMatrix]

Adding another data point:

I live in Socal, specifically San Bernardino county, in a mountain town, for two years. Have experienced no less than 6 blackouts each of the past two summers and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Also Temps are rising, even here in a snow town, summer temps have reached 90 to 100 degrees.

Last year I installed a 15kW solar array with 23 kwH battery backup last year. 42 panels and 2 13kW sunvault batteries in tandem. This neccesitates a panel upgrade as well. Total cost was 70k, less cash rebates of $23k, and tax rebate of 24% on total, my real cost was roughly $35K.

When power goes out, everything transitions to running on battery with the exception of certain power hungry applications such as oven and this is the worst offender, my central A/C. Luckily with the outages they are usually planned so I can blast the AC before I know the power will go out and the temp will usually stay comfortable until power gets restored.

Now as far as my personal take on your situation. I would not let my vehicle choice dictate which solar company to go with, regardless of how well the two companies (Ford and Sunrun) claim to integrate with each other. In my case, the ROI on my particular solar array, which is huge btw, not normal to have this big of a solar system, is 10 years, 5 years when I eventually get an EV.

In my opinion I suggest to look at other companies, specifically Sunpower. Then see if you can get some other tax credits to get a discounted or even free battery backup, that way your install will already be compatible with seamless battery power transition. Medical baseline credit, SGIP, etc. The solar reps know these well, consult with them. After installing this type of upgraded panel that can "talk" with the battery you can then integrate this with your EV battery more easily such as your Ford Lightning.

You may trade in the lightning for a refreshed mach-e or another EV from a different auto maker within 5 years, much sooner than you may move houses or break-even on solar. Don't let the more temporary or frequent purchase which depreciates (such as car) to dictate a more long term investment (such as home or solar which has ROI of usually 6-10 years and a useful life of 20+ years with 90% capability after 20 years).

The Ford lightning does have a huge battery at 90 something kwH for the standard range so this would likely power your house for a whole week, or a few days and still have some range for some errands so I do think having the capability to power your home is worth investigating. But I'd start looking from the solar companies point of view first, and then asking them how to integrate your EV, NOT the other way around.

Good luck!

Agree with that, I'd also add that it is the inverter that should drive decisions on the solar system. It is the brains that gives all future capabilities and drives maintenance and diagnosing issues. To save you time Sunpower is the best panel out there (my old prof founded), and Enphase has the best inverters. Just so happens you can buy those panels with inverter integrated. I would have gone with them but I wanted IQ8 vs IQ7 they have integrated and there was only one installer in whole area that could install them and they were not willing to manually make that change. That will change starting January when sunpower will sell their Maxeon to the whole industry and every installer will have access to them. But there are many high quality solar panes now and that should not drive the design decisions assuming you use Tier 1 quality manufacturer (e.g. Rec, LG...)

I can go into tech reasons why the panel design is superior, had plenty of courses from the founder back in grad school.

I will use Ford HIS but will tie it into an Enphase solar system where the power from car (or e-generator as I like to call it) will be additive to the solar, battery, and/or grid. Very cool to be able to do this. In most all other systems your car car goes online during grid failure, your solar shuts down. The advantage of each panel being microgrid forming.

 

[ExCivilian]

The advantage of each panel being microgrid forming.

Did you install all the equipment required for IQ8 grid forming capabilities? The micro-inverters are capable of that but you have to install some equipment to use the feature. When I checked into the pricing on this a few weeks ago my solar installer told me it would add another $10K+ to the system.

All in I was looking at around an extra $25K to my solar install to go with HIS along with grid-forming and a critical load panel that would make it useful to automate this. I do have the IQ8s, though, and assume the prices will come down to earth with enough adoption.

 

[PiMatrix]

Did you install all the equipment required for IQ8 grid forming capabilities? The micro-inverters are capable of that but you have to install some equipment to use the feature. When I checked into the pricing on this a few weeks ago my solar installer told me it would add another $10K+ to the system.

All in I was looking at around an extra $25K to my solar install to go with HIS along with grid-forming and a critical load panel that would make it useful to automate this. I do have the IQ8s, though, and assume the prices will come down to earth with enough adoption.

I'm not sure about extra equipment. But the basic system is IQ8 plus a solar panel. A system combiner 4 (that combines up to 4 legs of panels from roof, up to 4kW of solar each), a system controller 2 that is basically a DES (distributed energy source) panel and switch to the incoming grid that feeds your main panel or a back up panel if not doing whole house. You can have an optional IQ3 or 10 battery. With IQ8s there is no ratio needed as the solar can feed the microgrid directly (unlike Tesla or most all other systems where the battery system has to be as large as what you plan to backup). The system controller will also take a generator input although this is not "certified for an EV". I don' think this will be an issue but of course will not know until we do it. The EV is a clean source of electricity and a 240V potential electron is an electron. At present this is not a Enphase sanctioned solution but my method. There are Enphase solutions coming down the road early 2023 but I think an enphase microgrid has the best chance at compatability. This is not a solution you will see coming from Tesla to utilize Ford EVs

 

[VTbuckeye]

We just had solar installed on our roof with battery backup. Lg panels, iq8 micro inverters, Powerwall x2. The Tesla gateway 2 acts as the switching controller between the grid/solar/battery and unlike the enphase unit, it does not have a generator plug. It would be great to have power from the truck battery as well if needed. I'd probably need to add a neutral switching critical load panel. The whole home is backed up now (other than the EVSEs because they would drain the powerwall if power went out while charging). Otherwise we don't use too much. I'd probably move many of my 120V loads to the critical load panel and then I could manually choose to use the powerwall or the truck attached to the generator plug. I could have the truck plugged into a different evse (not on the isolated load panel) once the powerwall is full to absorb any additional solar production. Most likely it will never be an issue.

 

[PiMatrix]

We just had solar installed on our roof with battery backup. Lg panels, iq8 micro inverters, Powerwall x2. The Tesla gateway 2 acts as the switching controller between the grid/solar/battery and unlike the enphase unit, it does not have a generator plug. It would be great to have power from the truck battery as well if needed. I'd probably need to add a neutral switching critical load panel. The whole home is backed up now (other than the EVSEs because they would drain the powerwall if power went out while charging). Otherwise we don't use too much. I'd probably move many of my 120V loads to the critical load panel and then I could manually choose to use the powerwall or the truck attached to the generator plug. I could have the truck plugged into a different evse (not on the isolated load panel) once the powerwall is full to absorb any additional solar production. Most likely it will never be an issue.

You could also leave your whole home backup and use a Lumin panel to remove none critical loads in event of power failure (or even power from generator). You can then control these loads with an app if you happened to need a lesser used appliance, e.g the margarita maker. Uou can have up to 16 of these on-demand loads. Easy to install, I've ordered one for our in-design phase system so that the lightning will not get overloaded during night use. Enphase present solution only allows 4 load shedding solution vs 16 Lumin.

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