Winter / cold weather range loss study results

[RainorshinePNW]

You discussed the Jaguar and E-tron in your previous post. I not disputing the verified results.



How do they think they only lose 8% and 3% without testing them? By trusting the cars estimation? My Lightning and Mach-E can't get that right and neither can Tesla.

And how do they lose so little with heat pumps compared to the Tesla models that use them?

This is a hack article. If they didn't have facts to back the range loss claims up, they shouldn't have included them. And you shouldn't treat them as gospel.

Ok, yes- if you're referring to those specific cars, which I highlighted as just some examples, you're correct that the reported info on those as in the "Estimated" category. I wasn't trying to be so specific about one vs another- I was looking more at the aggregate.

If you actually read the details by model, you'll see where they call out key differences. For the I-PACE, "This is due to the I-PACE’s use of a heat pump to control cabin temperature, rather than the high voltage battery. The I-PACE also boasts a sophisticated thermal management system that pulls waste heat from the motor to warm the battery or cabin when needed, helping to preserve the range." I have no idea how that compares to Teslas and what they do or don't have heat pumps for.

Calling it a "hack" article is disingenuous, and no one is saying it's gospel. Like I said before, it's one of the better articles/studies/reviews I've seen that covers such a broad spectrum of cars and includes such a high volume of data points.

Also-

If you've got better sources, I'm all eyes. This post was all the name of education (for those like me new to EVs) and information sharing. I don't take that lightly when I share. Just trying to up everyone's consciousness

Sponsored

 

[RickLightning]

Here's the source article which actually goes quite a bit deeper into each vehicle and the science of it all. Sounds like those with heat pumps (unsurprisingly, I suppose) are the ones that do better in winter, including the E-tron and Jaguar

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss

Except they don't...

 

[RainorshinePNW]

Except they don't...

The CR report is based on ONE instance of each, right? They note the ID.4 *can* come with a heat pump, on the Canadian and European models, but I would guess most of their data here is from US versions, and "In both configuration, however, the cabin heater is resistive, rather than using a heat pump, so it does noticeably draw from battery power."

I realize this is a limited comparison of effectively the Mach E and Model Y. But doesn't the existence of a heat pump logically make sense it would be more winter efficient?

 

[Pioneer74]

The CR report is based on ONE instance of each, right? They note the ID.4 *can* come with a heat pump, on the Canadian and European models, but I would guess most of their data here is from US versions, and "In both configuration, however, the cabin heater is resistive, rather than using a heat pump, so it does noticeably draw from battery power."

I realize this is a limited comparison of effectively the Mach E and Model Y. But doesn't the existence of a heat pump logically make sense it would be more winter efficient?

I'm not arguing against heat pumps. I wish both our Mach-E and Lightning had them. My only argument with the article is assuming facts. To me, including vehicles without hard facts, makes me question the authenticity of the article as a whole.

 

[RickLightning]

The CR report is based on ONE instance of each, right? They note the ID.4 *can* come with a heat pump, on the Canadian and European models, but I would guess most of their data here is from US versions, and "In both configuration, however, the cabin heater is resistive, rather than using a heat pump, so it does noticeably draw from battery power."

I realize this is a limited comparison of effectively the Mach E and Model Y. But doesn't the existence of a heat pump logically make sense it would be more winter efficient?

Have you READ the article? It's easily accessed through most library websites. The basic concept is that in the dead of winter, i.e. when it's COLD out, heat pumps are useless both in cars and homes. That's why the COLD comparison is the relevant one.

From the article:


How We Tested
We began testing in frigid February 2022, repeating the procedure in balmy April and in August heat. Of these four models, we have results from only two seasons for the Ioniq 5 because of when we purchased our tested car. We will follow up with the Ioniq 5 in the winter.
The EVs were fully charged overnight before each of the runs and were allowed to precondition the cabin to 72° F while still plugged in outdoors. At the same time, we checked and verified the tire pressure. Heated and cooled seats weren’t used.

On the cold day, the temperature averaged 16° F (-8° C), meaning that considerable energy was needed to keep the cabin comfy and the battery pack in its ideal operating condition. The mild spring day was 65° F (18° C) during most of the drive, and the warm summer day was 85° F (29° C) during the drive. Each test day was clear and sunny.

The cars were taken on the road concurrently and driven on the same 142-mile round trip route of Connecticut Route 2 and I-91. We used adaptive cruise control set to 70 mph and the widest gap to prevent any aerodynamic trailing effect or sudden decelerations and accelerations due to surrounding traffic. The regenerative braking mode was set to its lowest setting for each car. We paused for 10 minutes with the cars off at the midpoint.

Once back at our Auto Test Center, our engineers didn’t just record the remaining range indicated in the cars. We applied the ratio of miles of range used vs. miles driven throughout the trip to extrapolate what would be the total range for that specific trip. We also checked that ratio against the miles driven per each percent of state of charge (SOC) as extra validation of our methodology.

We intentionally didn’t drain the batteries until totally empty in order to reflect the typical owner experience. We don’t drive regular gasoline cars until they are bone dry, either.
For reference, the EPA tests EV range using a dynamometer in a laboratory with driving cycles that simulate both highway and city driving. A slight weight is given to the city range when calculating the combined rating, and a correction factor is applied in an attempt to account for temperature, climate control use, and driving habits.

 

[RainorshinePNW]

Have you READ the article? It's easily accessed through most library websites. The basic concept is that in the dead of winter, i.e. when it's COLD out, heat pumps are useless both in cars and homes. That's why the COLD comparison is the relevant one.

Yes, and no where in that article does it mention heat pumps. And apparently you're incorrect:

"According to Dave Lis, director of technology and market solutions at Northeast Energy Efficiency Partnerships (NEEP), air-source heat pumps can work as a home’s main heating system in almost any climate."

https://www.consumerreports.org/hea...s-actually-work-in-cold-climates-a4929629430/

The Recurrent article specifically calls out, per vehicle, how they're individually set up/engineered. In the case of the e-tron, "The e-tron has a heat pump to heat the interior cabin without draining its high voltage battery, and can recapture up to 3 kW of waste heat from the motor."

 

[RainorshinePNW]

I'm not arguing against heat pumps. I wish both our Mach-E and Lightning had them. My only argument with the article is assuming facts. To me, including vehicles without hard facts, makes me question the authenticity of the article as a whole.

I didn't read them as assuming facts- to your earlier point, they note that they're including estimates for some models, but those estimates are based on the telematics reporting of over 7,000 vehicles in their membership base. The only ones they said were "verified" were the ones they've tested themselves. I thought it was still a fair and reasonable comparison to include a mix of estimated and verified vehicles for the purposes of including a broader spectrum.

 

[RainorshinePNW]

And just so we're clear, I love all you people, and have zero issue being corrected if/where I'm wrong. All in the interest of everyone getting smarter from everyone else's perspective and exposure to the widest range of info/data

 

[RickLightning]

Yes, and no where in that article does it mention heat pumps. And apparently you're incorrect:

"According to Dave Lis, director of technology and market solutions at Northeast Energy Efficiency Partnerships (NEEP), air-source heat pumps can work as a home’s main heating system in almost any climate."

https://www.consumerreports.org/hea...s-actually-work-in-cold-climates-a4929629430/

The Recurrent article specifically calls out, per vehicle, how they're individually set up/engineered. In the case of the e-tron, "The e-tron has a heat pump to heat the interior cabin without draining its high voltage battery, and can recapture up to 3 kW of waste heat from the motor."

We know that some of the Tesla models have heat pumps, correct? And they didn't do any better in the depth of winter temps.

As to homes, if you read the whole article, it's really showing how new, cold-climate heat pumps can be more efficient, in cold climates where the cost of fuel (oil, propane, or electric), whereas someone with natural gas would not want to switch. And of course it mentions subsidies.

The problem with the Recurrent information is a) the estimates and b) the non-scientific collection of data as compared to the CR evaluation where they put the vehicles through specific tests and then take measurements.

Recurrent's info, to me, is like looking at Fuelly and saying "oh look, model X gets better MPG than model Y". No, you have to put the two cars into the same usage experience, over a measured course, with measured fuel, without the tremendous differences based on various experiences.

 

[Pioneer74]

You have more personalities than my ex. Bye.

 

[White Lightning]

Thought this was interesting, especially for those of us new to EVs. Mustang Mach E seeing ~30%. Thankfully hasn't been that bad for me with my Lighting, but still seeing about a 20% loss.

Mustang Mach E owners here- that about right in your experience?

https://insideevs.com/news/626577/winter-cold-weather-ev-range-loss-study/

I think it's time for a @tommolog winter range test. Conditions look ideal next weekend... and traffic should be light.

 

[cwstnsko]

Teslas will have the most variability in the cold. Early Teslas, in all models, did not have heat pumps, so it depends more on the model year than the car model. In Teslas, the best examples will be those that are garaged, left plugged in, and have heat pumps. The worst will be models without heat pumps that are left outside and not plugged in. The ones not plugged in in cold temps will lose battery just sitting there due to the way that Tesla self-consumes the battery to maintain its temperature.
We have an etron and ours has the cold weather package. It‘s range losses in the cold are more then 8%, but probably not more than 20%.

 

[Akbrian]

I drove my truck this weekend at -25F in Alaska. I started the trip at -5F, indicated 180 mile range after a single precondition at 100%. I drove 65 miles used 45%. Truck sat outside in -15F for 5 hours. Was plugged into 120 but charger malfunctioned. Battery cooled to about 25F. Got back in drove another 35 miles power was limited to 85% due to battery temp. I used 35%. When I arrived it was -22F. Plugged in using mobile charger 220v. Took nearly 14 hours to full charge.

Night temp dipped to about -32F. next morning after a double precondition (setup for 8am and 10am when I was actually leaving) I left with 98%, 200 miles indicated and hovering around -25F. Battery was obviously nice and toasty but car scanner wouldn’t work so HVB temp was unknown. Drove the 35 miles used 20%. Truck sat for 5 hours in -10F not plugged in. Got back in used 55% to go 65 miles.

observations: at average temperature of -20F, 55% for driving usage. 18-20%climate, 16-19% outside air temp and 3-6% accessories.

the battery has no way to heat when not plugged in at very cold temperatures. There simply isn’t enough heat generated in the motor and HVB loop to raise the HVB temp at all. HVB coolant inlet temperature was never above 0F.

the guessometer was pretty spot on when the battery was preconditioned and even when it was cold.

the cabin heating system at -25F is more than adequate however you have to turn off auto and direct the heat where you need it to not ice up

the truck drives better at -25F than any vehicle I have ever driven, it does not stiffen up, is still super quite and very tight cabin, no air leaks at the doors or feet that you usually find at this temp.

I would never park the truck at those temperatures for more than about 6 hours without plugging in.

 

[Akbrian]

I think it's time for a @tommolog winter range test. Conditions look ideal next weekend... and traffic should be light.

Come to my location for a “winter test” my range is incredible at +20 or +30 compared to this.

 

[White Lightning]

Come to my location for a “winter test” my range is incredible at +20 or +30 compared to this.

I hope those those are the celsius temps...