Elderly Couple Disgruntled with Sunrun's "Whole Home Backup" Home Integration System

[RickLightning]

We have soffit vents. By roof, 2nd floor.

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[Stonelew]

Perhaps soffit vents are not a thing where you folks live, @luebri and @RickLightning. Since we have soffit vents galore every 6 feet around our house, I think we're the sort of folks that Consumer Reports admonishes to keep a gas generator well away from one's house (our electrical outlets for example, are not sealed for air leakage into or from the dead airspaces of our house). My wife says asphyxia from carbon monoxide is something she knew about and one of the reasons she doesn't want a gas generator around (I hadn't thought about it before). She feels that any backup is a waste of money for our lifestyle and needs, but if I want to blow my money on the HIS backup, go right ahead and do it, she says. But no gas generators, no way.

We are getting the charger installed first and then the bi-directional as the permits come through.This is going to be the first HIS backup Sunrun and City of Austin have installed so there is a learning curve in play. I have solar and want to try to charge the Lightning when the grid goes down, but not sure if the tech is there yet.

 

[HaroldCal]

As a follow up…
We FINALLY Get To Power Our Home (And Studio) From Our Ford F150 Lightning!

One thought based on the video contents: Do your heat pumps have soft-start capability?

For anyone following the thread that's unfamiliar, it's basically a big capacitor that serves to soften the required startup draw. It's become all the rage in the RV space, as it allows a smaller generator to run the A/C unit. But it might be well suited to this situation as well.

 

[Jim Lewis]

@Stonelew. Are you having to go the dedicated critical loads subpanel route? According to Sunrun, our installer in San Antonio will be ETW Energy. The ETW Energy head used to be a senior VP at Sunrun, where amongst other things, he was in charge of Procurement, Distribution, and Supply: https://energycentral.com/member/profile/raphael-kurian/about. ETW Energy has done a number of solar installs in Austin: https://www.buildzoom.com/contractor/etw-energy-tc. Are they doing your HIS installation? If they do yours, would love to hear back how satisfied you were with the job.

 

[Jim Lewis]

As a prospective HIS user, I found Aminorjourney's video quite informative on how to go about load-sharing. I was a little bit disappointed in that I had hoped that she had meant when she declared, "It works!" that she'd gotten the SPAN panel to work with her HIS system, but I guess that's reserved for a future YouTube video whenever Sunrun and SPAN get on the same page, if they ever do.



Visiting the SPAN webpage (https://www.span.io/), I was whimsically wondering about going with a total SPAN system, including SPAN Drive, but one would probably throw all the monitoring one gets within the truck and in the Ford Pass app out the window to do that. And the existence of SPAN is perhaps more tenuous than that of Sunrun, which has been in business as a solar installer for the past 15 years. A really big SPAN panel costs $4,500, too! It comes with a 10-year warranty. Very cool what it can do. But it's probably going to wear out eventually. The Delta equipment is not listed as supported by SPAN.

 

[HaroldCal]

I was a little bit disappointed in that I had hoped that she had meant when she declared, "It works!" that she'd gotten the SPAN panel to work with her HIS system, but I guess that's reserved for a future YouTube video whenever Sunrun and SPAN get on the same page, if they ever do.

I concur. Getting the SPAN panel working with this setup would (theoretically) alleviate a lot of the load shedding issues during an outage. Being able to have the SPAN automatically cut the heavy loads, and then you can manually (scripted?) bring them back up one at a time is very appealing.

But I also have concerns about longevity. If something critical in the SPAN panel dies, how long am I completely without power? Imagine a world where supply chain disruptions can cause parts to be unavailable for months at a time. Yikes. As much as I love the idea of the SPAN panel functionality and data, i'm nervous about relying on it at the same time.

 

[Stonelew]

@Stonelew. Are you having to go the dedicated critical loads subpanel route? According to Sunrun, our installer in San Antonio will be ETW Energy. The ETW Energy head used to be a senior VP at Sunrun, where amongst other things, he was in charge of Procurement, Distribution, and Supply: https://energycentral.com/member/profile/raphael-kurian/about. ETW Energy has done a number of solar installs in Austin: https://www.buildzoom.com/contractor/etw-energy-tc. Are they doing your HIS installation? If they do yours, would love to hear back how satisfied you were with the job.

Our over all electricity usage is low and we are working out details right now. I want whole house and I would manage the various loads, we shall see. Yes we are using ETW Energy and the VP has been great to work with, way better than earlier Sunrun hurry up and wait.

 

[Aminorjourney]

One thought based on the video contents: Do your heat pumps have soft-start capability?

For anyone following the thread that's unfamiliar, it's basically a big capacitor that serves to soften the required startup draw. It's become all the rage in the RV space, as it allows a smaller generator to run the A/C unit. But it might be well suited to this situation as well.

Yes - Both the heat pumps do have soft start, and shouldn't have an issue. However, our electricity bill went skyward after the SunRun system was first installed in October - $800 a month (more than we were paying to heat the house with the old Cadet Heaters!) and I suspect that maybe our water heater has been misbehaving. We've not had any problems with cold water, and it was only after I reset the switch LAST week that we started getting no hot water (because the timer is broken)

I wonder if it was just stuck on and causing issues?

As a prospective HIS user, I found Aminorjourney's video quite informative on how to go about load-sharing. I was a little bit disappointed in that I had hoped that she had meant when she declared, "It works!" that she'd gotten the SPAN panel to work with her HIS system, but I guess that's reserved for a future YouTube video whenever Sunrun and SPAN get on the same page, if they ever do.



Visiting the SPAN webpage (https://www.span.io/), I was whimsically wondering about going with a total SPAN system, including SPAN Drive, but one would probably throw all the monitoring one gets within the truck and in the Ford Pass app out the window to do that. And the existence of SPAN is perhaps more tenuous than that of Sunrun, which has been in business as a solar installer for the past 15 years. A really big SPAN panel costs $4,500, too! It comes with a 10-year warranty. Very cool what it can do. But it's probably going to wear out eventually. The Delta equipment is not listed as supported by SPAN.

I understand long-term that it will happen, and Sunrun were really ****** about the SPAN panel. It was blamed for all the issues until it was removed (and no-longer could be the root of the problem). I suspect my being a YouTuber/Journalist and me complaining bitterly meant that someone reset the system overnight because what wasn't working on Thursday was on Friday.

 

[HaroldCal]

However, our electricity bill went skyward after the SunRun system was first installed in October - $800 a month (more than we were paying to heat the house with the old Cadet Heaters!) and I suspect that maybe our water heater has been misbehaving.

Which is the exact use case argument for having the SPAN panel! But then, like you said..

and Sunrun were really ****** about the SPAN panel. It was blamed for all the issues until it was removed (and no-longer could be the root of the problem).

Ditto. I tried every which way to get them to at least consider working with the SPAN panel involved. I even called SPAN, to tell them that their *partner*, SunRun was refusing to work with their product. I got no traction there either.

I suspect my being a YouTuber/Journalist and me complaining bitterly meant that someone reset the system overnight because what wasn't working on Thursday was on Friday.

That's exactly why I was so excited that you were doing pretty much the exact setup I wanted. I was hoping you would be able to shame them into submission.

 

[Pitbull2o08]

Our over all electricity usage is low and we are working out details right now. I want whole house and I would manage the various loads, we shall see. Yes we are using ETW Energy and the VP has been great to work with, way better than earlier Sunrun hurry up and wait.

Can you just bypass the Subpanel and wire directly into the Main?

 

[Stonelew]

Can you just bypass the Subpanel and wire directly into the Main?

We up graded the main to 200 amps and there is plenty of room for 100 amp breaker. So my preference is direct to the main and I think that's how it will play out. Should have answers in a week.

 

[Jim Lewis]

Edit_Update: Actually (ISA), if you put the whole HIS system upstream from the main panel, I guess you have the disconnect from the grid and the feed on-grid or off-grid power into the main panel. We'd have a bit of a logistics problem as the electric meter is near the gas meter on the outside garage wall, a AC compressor comes between the electric meter and where any stuff might be put on the outside wall. There's very little room the requisite distance away from the gas meter and the AC unit to get the space required around paneling (and probably not enough space for everything, anyway). So, same problem inside the garage, you have to go 8 to 10 feet into the garage before you get enough wall space for everything, and a main breaker (and the HIS RSD?) is still required (probably on the outside wall within 10 feet of the meter) for emergency disconnects of power to the house. So, even if wiring directly to the main panel is allowed, there will be a lot of relocation to make it work.

Since the HIS can only handle ~200 amps on the grid and my house is already rated ~for that, one would probably have to keep the new 100-amp circuit for the FCSP on its own separate breaker out of the main panel and not drawing current through the HIS system along with everything else.

Original, ignorant post below!

Can you just bypass the Subpanel and wire directly into the Main?

I've wondered about that (see comment in 2nd paragraph), but I think the MID/WHB has to be downstream of the main panel unless the grid disconnect switch in the MID/WHB is a separate box that can be placed by itself upstream from the main. Otherwise (my ignorance may be showing here!), wouldn't you have backfeed into the grid (a big No-No) if you're feeding power from the truck directly into the main with no disconnect from the grid? Since @Stonelew is investigating this possibility with ETW Energy, maybe he already has an answer on how that might work.

I wondered if my Sunrun rep was hinting at the main panel possibility in her reply, which I quoted in this post: https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...kup-home-integration-system.14535/post-302279. She mentions me managing my loads and gives as an example "keeping oven turned off." I thought that was a silly example, as my oven is on the main panel, not the subpanel. Maybe it's just her indifferent unfamiliarity with my home wiring (probably the most likely possibility). I have yet to get an actual design plan out of them. Perhaps they don't want to seem to promise anything the City of San Antonio has not approved yet. The most amusing thing is saying that one hangup is getting our utility, City Public Service, to approve the installation of the HIS system, which is obviously going to interact with their power grid if in no other way than switching loads on or off. Shows you how many HIS systems have been installed in San Antonio if getting approval from our utility for HIS is a big deal - although I might be the first in SA trying to avoid a dedicated sub-subpanel.

I think @Aminorjourney said one problem with hooking the HIS system up to the SPAN smart panel is that the HIS system can do funny things to phases as it makes adjustments, and the SPAN panel didn't like that. If you have a good disconnect upstream from the main panel (or the subpanel, if that's what's fed), that's not going to be a problem for the grid, and so little relative power would be leaking back if something goes wrong. But I wondered if the phase thing is a problem even when the device is on grid power and drawing potentially much more power from the grid? (maybe I can appropriate ISA for "ignorance showing again" as opposed to Industry Standard Architecture or any similar acronym?). I really appreciate all the good information I'm getting from folks on this forum. It's helped me tremendously.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

So I keep reading you say "gas generator". My view on that term is dramatically different. Yes portable "Gasoline" generators are a bit of work to maintain and have ready to hookup. Mine is a 10,800-Watt peak/8,550-Watt rated (LPG) dual fuel and I have only run on propane until / if I need the full power of Gasoline. Then I will fill it with gas at that point and it can run my whole home via a safe mechanical interlock. Yes they are loud, that is a fair argument.

If that type of Gas generator is too dangerous or a pain in the butt, a natural gas standby generator is the logical choice and I am in the home state of the biggest player in that space (Generac) which are by no means loud at all. So I am really confused by the hangup. I would much rather be able to drive my ($80k) vehicle then drive the equivalent of my ($1k to $10k) gas or NG generator.

Again, I've been following along so if your wife wont reason with you then that is a you and her thing, but the majority consensus on this message board is Ford / Sunrun HIS is an expensive carnival trick and that is exactly what you are running into.

You are WAY understating the negatives of natural gas generators. I have a Generac at my farm, a 50 kWh 8-cylinder system installed on a slab behind the barn in 2006. It cost $50k to install, fires up twice weekly for 30 minutes, requires a $2k annual service contract, has needed over $8k of repairs in the past five years, and uses a huge amount of power to run its block heater in sub freezing weather to maintain standby status. I never realized it was my biggest single electrical USER until we installed the TED energy detective system five years ago and started monitoring 64 circuits on the farm, both use and solar production (we have 43 kWh of solar panels on 7 inverters). It turns out that some days the generator’s heater is our biggest electrical draw. It is a constant source of hassle and worry. For the same money we would now put in batteries that could do the same service for two days, but it doesn’t make sense to spend the $50k until the generator dies. However, it is VERY loud, heard all over the neck where we live, easily from inside our LEED-certified (heavily insulated, triple-glass widowed) house that is 300 feet away, blocked by the barn. Passive battery solutions are WAY better, on par price-wise.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

One thought based on the video contents: Do your heat pumps have soft-start capability?

For anyone following the thread that's unfamiliar, it's basically a big capacitor that serves to soften the required startup draw. It's become all the rage in the RV space, as it allows a smaller generator to run the A/C unit. But it might be well suited to this situation as well.

SunRun has agreed to install a soft-start device on our heat pump because they discovered the excess startup draw issue AFTER specifying that the system could run all critical loads including our HVAC. They installed the HIS with the HVAC lines pulled in the conduit, but wire-nutted off in the sub-panel until they come back with the soft-start device. They have to come back anyway, and are bringing Ford engineers from Dearborn, and SunRun engineers from New Jersey (our HIS system is at our house in south Florida) because after four tries onsite they cannot make the system run my house, and the apps do not connect. My truck is also stuck in semi-permanent upgrade limbo at 3.5.5, so it will be all-hands on deck when we return from Antarctica in March.

 

[RickLightning]

You are WAY understating the negatives of natural gas generators. I have a Generac at my farm, a 50 kWh 8-cylinder system installed on a slab behind the barn in 2006. It cost $50k to install, fires up twice weekly for 30 minutes, requires a $2k annual service contract, has needed over $8k of repairs in the past five years, and uses a huge amount of power to run its block heater in sub freezing weather to maintain standby status. I never realized it was my biggest single electrical USER until we installed the TED energy detective system five years ago and started monitoring 64 circuits on the farm, both use and solar production (we have 43 kWh of solar panels on 7 inverters). It turns out that some days the generator’s heater is our biggest electrical draw. It is a constant source of hassle and worry. For the same money we would now put in batteries that could do the same service for two days, but it doesn’t make sense to spend the $50k until the generator dies. However, it is VERY loud, heard all over the neck where we live, easily from inside our LEED-certified (heavily insulated, triple-glass widowed) house that is 300 feet away, blocked by the barn. Passive battery solutions are WAY better, on par price-wise.

Of course a 50kWh generator is not standard for a home - most get a 18 - 22kWh generator. Installation, which varies based on pipe and wiring needed, for us just broke $10 including the generator.

I don't know why you're running twice a week for 30 minutes. Ours is once a week, for 5 minutes, and tests in quiet mode.

We don't need a service contract, if we pay for annual service it's $300 a year, most years it will be an oil change so we likely will do it yourself.

Ours came with a 10 year warranty due to a promo, which includes all parts and labor.

Yes, block heaters can use a large amount of power, and clearly a 50kWh generator needs different heat than a 22kWh generator, and 2006 is 17 years ago so technology has changed.

Almost nothing about a business installation translates to a consumer's home.

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