Elderly Couple Disgruntled with Sunrun's "Whole Home Backup" Home Integration System

[Maquis]

You are WAY understating the negatives of natural gas generators. I have a Generac at my farm, a 50 kWh 8-cylinder system installed on a slab behind the barn in 2006. It cost $50k to install, fires up twice weekly for 30 minutes, requires a $2k annual service contract, has needed over $8k of repairs in the past five years, and uses a huge amount of power to run its block heater in sub freezing weather to maintain standby status. I never realized it was my biggest single electrical USER until we installed the TED energy detective system five years ago and started monitoring 64 circuits on the farm, both use and solar production (we have 43 kWh of solar panels on 7 inverters). It turns out that some days the generator’s heater is our biggest electrical draw. It is a constant source of hassle and worry. For the same money we would now put in batteries that could do the same service for two days, but it doesn’t make sense to spend the $50k until the generator dies. However, it is VERY loud, heard all over the neck where we live, easily from inside our LEED-certified (heavily insulated, triple-glass widowed) house that is 300 feet away, blocked by the barn. Passive battery solutions are WAY better, on par price-wise.

There’s a reason the guys on the electrician forums call them “Junkerac” instead of Generac. Once you get into that size, an industrial manufacturer is the way to go, I.E., Cat or Cummins.

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[PungoteagueDave]

Going back to OP’s original question, SunRun will not limit your subpanel size to just 8 circuits despite the form you reference. Disregard that form, no one will ask for it or even know that it exists. I may have missed something in the intervening posts, but the subpanel they installed in our 2,700-ft. Florida townhouse was the same size as our main panel. The SunRun electrician requested a game-time decision on which circuits to switch over. He tabulated them as we went down the list on the main panel, and when we finished, he said “you have plenty more space, anything else?” We started again at the top, chose more things we had skipped like the oven, washer & dryer, and still ended up with capacity. In the end we moved almost every circuit from the main panel over to the subpanel, leaving behind one or two that we couldn’t identify any possible need for. The subpanel is still required if you want to have the system work automatically, because you must isolate the grid side completely for automatic switching.

Your apparent solution to do everything manually seems to defeat the primary purpose for the HIS - the automatic element of having the truck serve as a backup generator without user intervention - especially the way we are using it. We intend to leave the truck in charge when away for several months at a time, making sure the freezers and boat battery chargers on the dock (with related bilge pumps) stay in full nick, and see the house’s internet connectivity remains live, with cameras, thermostats, shades, lights, Amazon MyQ, remote control systems, etc. I think you are trying to get SunRun to commit to something in advance that is really a site determination that is done during installation, or at least that’s how it worked during our install. That issue was the LEAST of the problems.

Our system was installed in September, and still only charges the truck, will not function to power the house. Our system could not be more generic, on a standard townhouse with a two-car garage, nothing special, built in 2005. It is a whole saga that I’ve discussed elsewhere on the forum, and I remain both patient and hopeful that it will get sorted, but do not recommend doing a SunRun HIS install at this time - too many firmware connections and potential points of failure. Eveything must be perfectly right in the truck, the charger, the phone apps (two apps), the HIS, the inverter (part of the HIS but separate internal circuitry with it own update process that you cannot see or push - it has its own cell phone connection, God knows who pays for that or how long it will last), the dark start battery, the Ford mother ship server, and the SunRun mother ship server, all dancing in sync at once.

At least in our case, the top people in engineering this system at SunRun and Ford are involved, and SunRun flew in their regional supervisor just for this issue (as a result of my posts on this forum) and they STILL have not been able to get it to work. Again, I expect it will be made to function as designed, haven’t paid anything for it yet and will not until it runs my house for at least a day. I don’t actually blame Ford or SunRun for this, as someone had to be first, and it was destined t have hiccups, but it is becoming a bad look. I am aware they are losing money and hope they are learning something in these installations that will provide a benefit for further development, am willing to pay a bit of a time price on that learning curve as long as it eventually gets sorted. However, if it were at my farm, where 14 million baby oysters are at risk in power outages, my head would be popping off. Like you and @Aminorjourney, this is at a spot and with an objective that isn’t mission-critical, almost for personal or academic interest, as we already had a way to charge, FPL power is fairly reliable, and we don’t live there during hurricane season anyway.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Of course a 50kWh generator is not standard for a home - most get a 18 - 22kWh generator. Installation, which varies based on pipe and wiring needed, for us just broke $10 including the generator.

I don't know why you're running twice a week for 30 minutes. Ours is once a week, for 5 minutes, and tests in quiet mode.

We don't need a service contract, if we pay for annual service it's $300 a year, most years it will be an oil change so we likely will do it yourself.

Ours came with a 10 year warranty due to a promo, which includes all parts and labor.

Yes, block heaters can use a large amount of power, and clearly a 50kWh generator needs different heat than a 22kWh generator, and 2006 is 17 years ago so technology has changed.

Almost nothing about a business installation translates to a consumer's home.

We must run twice per week because of the way our system is installed. We have two separate feeds with two cut-over switches (one for barn and boathouse, one for the house) and the cycling process runs once on each side. I’m not sure about the technicalities on this but that’s the way GroSolar and the generator contractor explained it. As to why a half hour run time, an engine should not routinely be started for only 5 minutes at a time and then shut down. A half hour is the minimum time to both get it up to full operating temperature and burn off/evaporate the condensate that forms in the crankcase, intakes, exhaust and other engine parts during the start. As the owner of several antique cars and several motorcycles that we put into storage for winter, one of the first things we were taught is to NEVER start up a car or motorcycle part way through the dormant period without running it hard and long, actually taking it out for a drive - that running it for five minutes is the single most destructive thing we can do - a lot of people do this several times during the winter, thinking it is good for their stored vehicle, when it is really awful - put it on a battery tender, add stabilizer to the fuel, and forget it. Same for boats, every kind of internal combustion engine. Because generators must cycle weekly, a half hour is the minimum to keep it in good shape and not create rusted exhaust components, etc. No, generator tech hasn’t changed much since 2006 - generac still sells the same generator. A battery wall would be FAR superior for the exact same requirement - zero maintenance, same price, same capacity, dead quiet. Install it and forget it. No oil changes, no annual contract, no filters. Even generac is down selling their dinosaur generators, is planning full phase-out in favor of their new battery solutions. Literally no reason for absurdly complex rotating combustion tech any more except places far off grid.

 

[RickLightning]

Generac specifies 5 min, the software does it automatically.

Is yours air or water cooled?

https://www.generac.com/service-support/faqs/home-backup-faqs/how-do-i-know-the-generator-is-working

 

[Jim Lewis]

Generac specifies 5 min, the software does it automatically.

I don't know much about electricity and backup solutions, but as far as what companies recommend, sometimes recommendations are not necessarily what's best for the equipment but for retaining happy customers for the length of time that the OEM thinks the customer will be satisfied with the equipment lasting before the warranty runs out and they hope the customer will want to buy new, etc. A happy customer might be one that only has to run his equipment for 5 minutes instead of running it for 30 minutes or more (the neighbors will complain less about the weekly noise).

 

[RickLightning]

Valid point, but Generac actually handles that by exercising at a low output level. The 5 minute test can be done weekly, biweekly, or monthly, but you can't change the length of time.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Generac specifies 5 min, the software does it automatically.

Is yours air or water cooled?

https://www.generac.com/service-support/faqs/home-backup-faqs/how-do-i-know-the-generator-is-working

I don’t care what generac says, and whether air cooled or water cooled makes zero difference. Mine happens to be water cooled. The fact is that it is very bad for any internal combustion motor to be started and run for 5 minutes at a time, full stop. Doing so WILL cause premature wear and rust, no question. This is not a debatable point. Not only should it be run for AT LEAST 30 minutes, it must be run under load. https://www.facilitiesnet.com/power...erators-To-Keep-Them-In-Fighting-Shape--14803

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Valid point, but Generac actually handles that by exercising at a low output level. The 5 minute test can be done weekly, biweekly, or monthly, but you can't change the length of time.

There is no question that running an engine for only a few minutes every so often (like weekly) does more harm than good. This isn’t even a close call. And running it under light load is even worse. https://journal.classiccars.com/201...tart-that-is-the-question-for-winter-storage/

 

[LightningCanuckNB]

My house has a generator panel already deployed that has about 60A worth of circuits on it. I use a 8KW generator to run it when needed.

When announced I thought the Ford HIS was cool but the more I learn about it the stupider the system is. I don't get why they didn't just take advantage of the giant 7.2KW inverter in the truck itself... that is what I plan to do. Power goes out, I am just going to plug my generator panel right in the truck. Not wasting thousands of dollars on another inverter.

I'd encourage others to consider this setup. A generator panel can be deployed for $800 or less, and gives you way more flexibility than the silly HIS.

 

[Jim Lewis]

So, on Friday, 2/24, I had a video conference call with Sunrun about my desire to back up my existing subpanel with 26 20-amp 120-volt breakers and a 30-amp 240-volt dryer breaker. They told me that, in principle that they had no problem with that. I could even leave the dryer circuit in the panel, especially if I were going to practice power management and not automatically have the truck power kick in if the grid power went down, as the dryer is something I can make sure to leave off during an outage. They said the kicker was that the work was subcontracted to ETW Energy, and the standard contract price is only for installing and transferring circuits to a 12-breaker critical loads backup panel. The maximum size critical loads panel they install is a 20-breaker panel. I figured since the wife and I almost entirely live on the first floor, if we left off the upstairs lights and outlets and the attic lights and outlets that don't include the 2nd-floor gas furnace in the attic, we could fit ~everything we need into a 20-breaker backup panel. Sunrun said there'd have to be a contract price increase for the 20-breaker panel. ETW Energy would evaluate the relative expense to them of a 20-breaker panel vs. whether there was any reason not to work the entire existing subpanel into the scheme of things (in my ignorance, that seemed to be easily the least expensive, most workable option, but I'm awaiting the ETW Energy analysis).

The ETW electricians were here on Friday also and installed my FCSP. I hooked it up with the FordPass app and my home Wi-Fi network, and that all went smoothly. I asked the head electrician how he could do that when the city utility had not run extra power to our house yet. The electrician said he looked at the size of the wire feeding the meter and judged it was big enough to easily draw an extra 100-amps if needed over the 100-amp breaker he temporarily installed in our old main panel(!), which is due to be replaced as part of the upgrade. And he did it with the main panel hot! He said they can't install the HIS equipment and properly rewire everything until the utility shuts off power to our house, which takes two to four weeks to arrange. He also commented that they'd already installed 15 Ford charging stations in San Antonio but forthrightly said no HIS units yet, but quickly added that would be no problem for him as he was a very capable electrician. I liked his chutzpah.

Right now, the cord on the FCSP is so new that it still doesn't hang anywhere near straight down from the charging plug when it's seated in the base unit. Does the cord get floppier with time or sag more when the weather gets warmer? Right now, the cord is jutting out about an extra 8 inches to a foot from the charging plug resting in the base unit.

 

[hifixenthusiast]

I don't know much about electricity and backup solutions, but as far as what companies recommend, sometimes recommendations are not necessarily what's best for the equipment but for retaining happy customers for the length of time that the OEM thinks the customer will be satisfied with the equipment lasting before the warranty runs out and they hope the customer will want to buy new, etc. A happy customer might be one that only has to run his equipment for 5 minutes instead of running it for 30 minutes or more (the neighbors will complain less about the weekly noise).

If you already own a Lightning there are some great options for it to provide backup power to your home. I currently use the HIS and it works great. I have used extension cords and the ProPower onboard. SunRun is still working on implementing the application notification feature, but it isn't needed for the system to operate. I would recommend consulting with a trusted or reputable electrician on your specific installation. I used an electrician that I trust to complete the install and we followed the published SunRun SoPs found here. SunRun Ford customer care, supports these installations now. Originally they weren't fully ready and prepared too, that has changed.

https://sites.google.com/sunrun.com/sop/sops/ev-chargers/ford-ev-charger

The electrician did an incredible job and all in with a very simple, but custom installation it cost $8500 (HIS and Labor). Please note, that the Ford Charge Station Pro ($1300) came with my Ford Lightning and the software was enabled. A comparable generator would have cost me $18k and batteries would be about $28k installed. I had both quoted.

Good luck and I hope you find the right solution for you and your families needs.

 

[Jim Lewis]

@hifixenthusiast. Thanks very much for the info. I'll see what happens with Sunrun, and your success story may be the impetus I need to steer them in the direction you went and I'd like to go (using an existing subpanel for "critical loads"). @Ford Motor Company should read some of the posts on this forum about Sunrun and light a fire under Sunrun's pants. My experience with Sunrun so far has been what almost everyone else on this forum has complained about: they're expensive and terrible at any sort of interactive planning. Even after making requests, one gets next to no feedback on exactly what they're planning to do or even a set of plans. No load analysis (that was requested, too). It's like buying a house where you're told it will be 3400 sq. ft., 4 bedrooms, 3 1/2 baths. But don't worry. Leave the details to us. We'll give you a call the day we're ready to come build the house we've designed for you. I expect a lot more details and interaction for anything costing $12K (or more in the end).

 

[luebri]

The electrician did an incredible job and all in with a very simple, but custom installation it cost $8500 (HIS and Labor). Please note, that the Ford Charge Station Pro ($1300) came with my Ford Lightning and the software was enabled. A comparable generator would have cost me $18k and batteries would be about $28k installed. I had both quoted.

Good luck and I hope you find the right solution for you and your families needs.

Wow! Generators are way more expensive in your region apparently. I would not have guessed that! Glad it worked out for you with HIS

 

[Major Dawg]

I've gotten a bid from Sunrun to install the Ford Charge Station Pro and the Home Integration System and have signed the contract with the option to cancel up to the installation day. Yet nowhere in the contract do they state exactly what they're going to back up. I've told them if they don't give me a suitable answer, I will cancel. I thought other forum members might find the specifics amusing and also be able to offer me some good advice.

To provide context and back up a bit, my wife and I are an elderly couple in our 70s. We have a ~3400 sq ft house. Our kids are middle-aged adults and long gone. They live far away, and we visit them. They don't visit us. We live frugally, don't throw large parties, have many house guests, etc. We live as if we owned a 1,000 sq ft house. All the heavy-duty electrical stuff, the oven, and stovetop, and the two AC compressors are on the main panel. Everything else, except for the electric dryer, on the sub-panel, are electrical outlets and lights. The blowers on the two gas furnaces are powered on the subpanel as well as the refrigerator/freezer, and from time to time in the winter, usually one, sometimes two 1.5 kW space heaters.

Our sub-panel has twenty-six 20-amp 120-volt breakers and a combined 30-amp 240-volt breaker for the dryer for a theoretical max consumption of 69.6 kW, whereas the main panel is only breakered for 30 kW for the sub-panel.

Perhaps here's where electrical ignorance and foolishness on my part kick in. In fall, winter, and spring months, when AC use is not a factor, our average daily electrical use is always less than 15 kWh PER DAY. And that includes the use of the electric stove top, oven, and dryer. I figured with that low consumption of power, the truck could literally back up the whole sub-panel with the dryer removed without much risk of trying to draw too much power from the extended-range battery that will come with the truck.

However, Sunrun has told me that their SOP is to break out just the circuits my wife and I deem as critical to a sub-sub-panel that is referred to in their documentation as the "backup panel" (BUP). When you look at their website setup literature, the requisite checklist sheet for backup loads testing allows for a panel that holds at most 12 household circuits:

https://sites.google.com/sunrun.com/sop/work-instructions/backup-loads-testing?authuser=0 (sign in with a Google account, see slide 12 by clicking on the slide number at the lower left)

Also, the required photo checklist for installation commissioning shows a panel with at most 12 breaker slots: https://sites.google.com/sunrun.com/sop/photo-checklists/ev-charger-system-checklists?authuser=0 (sign in with a Google account; see slide 20 in 2nd set of slides for EV Charger and HIS by clicking on slide number in the lower left of 1st slide)

I suggested to Sunrun that the truck with 9.2 to 9.6 kW output could easily back up our very low electrical usage if the dryer circuit were just removed from the sub-panel. If Sunrun were concerned about the ill-considered use of electricity drawing too much power from the truck, why not just put a 40-amp breaker in the HIS circuitry to the sub-panel? No response whatsoever from Sunrun so far on this suggestion.

I decided the ultimate bottom line would be the City of San Antonio electrical code inspectors. So, I spoke to a very helpful inspector on the phone today.

He suggested that putting load-dumping circuitry between the HIS and the sub-panel would be one way to have a "whole house backup" while protecting the truck from drawing too much current. He agreed that putting a 40-amp breaker in any acceptable place between the truck charger and the sub-panel would also do. But he said one of the most important elements of code inspection in San Antonio is whether or not the wiring scheme used meets the recommended wiring diagram of an OEM. He did suggest that if Sunrun wasn't willing to customize my installation, I should find another installer, but it seems that meeting the wiring setup recommended by the OEM is going to be a tough nut to crack. The inspector did say that all the Sunrun installations that he's inspected (presumably mostly solar panels) were well done.

I've forwarded the electrical inspector's comments to Sunrun, but they haven't responded yet. It does seem like with Sunrun that you're paying a lot but getting a little, at least in customizing an installation to fit a customer's electrical usage. Another complication that I didn't discuss with the inspector and perhaps the reason Sunrun doesn't employ the two overprotection ideas I'm considering is that both load dumping circuitry and big breakers can generate large transient voltage spikes, according to Internet articles. There might be a need to provide downstream surge suppression that might wear out eventually. So, if anyone has any good advice on any of the above for an electrical ignoramus, I'd much appreciate it.

If you are not happy with Sunrun, contact an EV installation speciality company like QMerit, they are great and saved me money compared to Sunrun. I was not happy with the Sunrun quote, lack of bill of materials and time breakdown charges, QMerit was easier to contact, talk to and got all my questions answered before I sign the contract with them.

 

[Jim Lewis]

If you are not happy with Sunrun, contact an EV installation speciality company like QMerit, they are great and saved me money compared to Sunrun.

Thanks for the suggestion. I did try to contact QMerit as described in this post, https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...kup-home-integration-system.14535/post-301743. Perhaps I just got the wrong QMerit guy on the line. At any rate, tomorrow Sunrun will finally install the Home Integration System. I've had a working FCSP since the end of February, but they told me the delay has been caused by having to get the approval of both the City of San Antonio and my utility, CPS Energy, before installing the HIS unit. I'm supposed to be able to back up my entire whole interior house lighting/outlets subpanel and decide what circuits I want to have on by flipping breakers as needed. I did get a load analysis in the end that showed I could just squeeze in an additional 100-amp circuit to support my FCSP without upgrading my 200-amp main panel. Our electrical usage is so low that I'm sure that will work for us, but maybe not for any future owners of our house who use a lot more juice.

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