208 3P/ NEMA 14-50 wiring/ 460 volt cornucopia

[Charlieman22]

Hi all.
First post.
Day 2 with new truck.
Sitting at charging station typing with thumbs as I consider what my charging set up should be.
Little bit of a unique situation.
Looking for some /insights/suggestions/creative solutions from anyone that wants to weigh in.

Considerations:
I've got three places I spend most my time:
1. House. Rented. No charger, not easily installed. (Home charging unlikely option).
2. Have work shop with range of power and outlet configs.
: 208 3P (~124V/leg, 215V hot leg to hot leg).
: 123V & 215V 1P. The 215V uses 2 hot legs and a ground.
: Shop has a 3P transformer 7.5KVA that outputs 3P ~450V - split equally amongst the legs.
3. Work site. Temp elec pole. 200 amp service. 220 volt L14-80 outlet (could change).
4. Charger that came with the truck. Nema 14-50 plug 4 prong plug

So...
I'm pondering what a best set of solutions might be.
Need to get job site up and running for charging ASAP.
Can I swap out the 14-80 for a 14-50 outlet or do I need to downsize the breaker too if its really an 80 amp?

Interested to know what y'all would do given same set of circumstances.
Thanks!
-CM

Ford charger

Ford charger plug

My current oulets

Power pole at the work site

 

[Maquis]

I’d probably install a hard-wired EVSE on the 215V at your shop and a 14-50 on a 50A breaker at the job site.

 

[Charlieman22]

Thanks for weighing in Maquis.

Wondering if it’s just a game of high amp evse 1p or should I be hunting a 3P solution for faster charge.
new to the game…

also trying to decipher needs for outlet breaker amperage.
Plug on charger is 50 amp.
Is the breaker amperage a limiting factor?

 

[farmtruck]

I have one of my charge station pros set up on an A-frame stand with an L14-50 plug that I use at job sites.

 

[Armadillo]

A nema 14-80 outlet does not exist. The four pin outlet in your second picture is a locking Nema L14-30R. This is a 30 amp receptable. Also commonly found on generators. Your lightning probably has one in the bed. This could be used with an adapter but you need a charger which supports limiting the charge current to 24amps (80% of outlet rating for continuous loads). The ford mobil charger does not support this and the truck does not have a way to limit the charge current like on Teslas.

the first outlet is a Nema 6-50R this is a 50 amp outlet. Chargers are commonly available for this plug. I do not believe ford sells a 6-50 oem adapter for their mobile charger. Aftermarket 6-50 to 14-50 adapters do exist but I would not recommend that as a permanent solution. If you can add a properly sized neutral wire back to the panel the 6-50 receptable can be changed to a 14-50R.

 

[Armadillo]

One additional consideration on your existing 6-50 outlet. The lugs on the receptacle are not listed to have two wires under the single screw of the terminal. It would also appear that this is also not a dedicated circuit, for ev charging this is less than ideal and not recommended.

 

[farmtruck]

Thanks for weighing in Maquis.

Wondering if it’s just a game of high amp evse 1p or should I be hunting a 3P solution for faster charge.
new to the game…

also trying to decipher needs for outlet breaker amperage.
Plug on charger is 50 amp.
Is the breaker amperage a limiting factor?

Look at Grizzl-e.com. They have both single and three phase options. The price jump from a single phase to a 3 phase is quite large.
As for breaker size, the charger output needs to be configured at 80% of your breaker size. Output on the CSPs and the Grizzl-e are set using internal microswitches.
I have 2 hardwired CSPs set at 100 amps input and my portable is set at 50 amps input. The 100 amp chargers kick butt over the 50 amp one, however, I didn't want to pay for 3 gauge drop cable and a 100 amp plug set.

 

[Charlieman22]

Armadillo - good detail.
Very helpful.

Job site:
"80% of receptacle for continuous load" for recepticle. Got it.
One thing I haven't quite figured out: the role the breaker plays.
Example: if I swapped out the outlet for a 14-50, and rewired to appropriate gauge wire (6?), does the breaker need to match? (in this case, 50 amp). Box may have some additional capacity on its label. I'll check.

One additional consideration on your existing 6-50 outlet. The lugs on the receptacle are not listed to have two wires under the single screw of the terminal. It would also appear that this is also not a dedicated circuit, for ev charging this is less than ideal and not recommended.

Thanks for the head's up.
Ironically - those were part of the job that a licensed electrician did before I installed a new larger service.

If you can add a properly sized neutral wire back to the panel the 6-50 receptable can be changed to a 14-50R.

I've got remaining wire from the original job in red or blue. I should be able to achieve this and can mark it as neutral with white tape which I believe is code.

Much appreciated.

Still curious about the internets insistence that a 3 phase charger would be faster than single phase. Not sure they exist/ any truth to it tho.
Thanks.
-CM

 

[mrau]

The breaker can not exceed the rating of the wire and the outlet. If wire and outlet have different ratings, then breaker should match the lowest rated.

The outlet’s rating should never be higher than the wire rating or the breaker size.

 

[Charlieman22]

As for breaker size, the charger output needs to be configured at 80% of your breaker size. Output on the CSPs and the Grizzl-e are set using internal microswitches.
I have 2 hardwired CSPs set at 100 amps input and my portable is set at 50 amps input. The 100 amp chargers kick butt over the 50 amp one, however, I didn't want to pay for 3 gauge drop cable and a 100 amp plug set.

Farmtruck - thanks.
Drinking water from hydrant - but getting there.
The CSPs you use are hardwired - and run at 80% of their circuit. So I assume if you have them set to 100amp, you must have 125amp dedicated circuit?
Your portable is 50 amp, does that mean it requires 62.5+ rated outlet to plug into? Or have I got things backrearwards?

 

[Heliian]

Farmtruck - thanks.
Drinking water from hydrant - but getting there.
The CSPs you use are hardwired - and run at 80% of their circuit. So I assume if you have them set to 100amp, you must have 125amp dedicated circuit?
Your portable is 50 amp, does that mean it requires 62.5+ rated outlet to plug into? Or have I got things backrearwards?

FCSP is 80a max on a 100a breaker, you can internally set the fcsp to lower max currents for wiring into smaller circuits.

The mobile power cord will draw about 30amps max.

In your situation, I'd get a portable adjustable unit and adapters, something like an amproad or one of the many other units out there to cover all of your needs. Those units can max out at 40a.

 

[hturnerfamily]

the quickest,simplest, and most economical for now:

just change out the work-pole to a 14-50 Outlet... plug in, and charge. Easy.

 

[hturnerfamily]

also, just because it's a NEMA 14-50 outlet does not mean it has to be a 6awg 4-wire to the breaker, and the breaker does not have to be a double-pole 50amp size.
The 14-50 outlet is simply the 'adopted' standardized size outlet for most EVSE for 'at-home' charging. There are EVSEs that also use 20amp outlets, and others, too, but are rarer.

If you are only charging an EV with your 30amp Ford Mobile EVSE, then a NEMA 14-50 outlet with 8awg wiring(3 or 4 wires, doesn't matter) and a 40amp double-pole breaker will work perfectly. Add a note to the outlet that it is 'up to 40amps Only', just as a precaution for future work or owners, if you feel the need.

Sometimes folks get too caught up in the 'names' of differing outlets and wiring schemes, but the reality is that as long as the Breaker is up to the task of what the WIRING can handle, then you are covered. That is what the breaker's job is. If the wiring is up to the task of what the EVSE requires, then you are covered.

a note about 3 or 4 wires: EVSEs typically do NOT require 4 wires, as there is no NEUTRAL wire within most any EVSE. While the NEMA 14-50 outlet is set up for 4 wires, if it is only to be used for an EVSE, then the Neutral is not necessary for your charging needs. If you run it, just for future usage or needs, the EVSE just won't be using it. Most folks will wire it anyway.

 

[Armadillo]

Farmtruck - thanks.
Drinking water from hydrant - but getting there.
The CSPs you use are hardwired - and run at 80% of their circuit. So I assume if you have them set to 100amp, you must have 125amp dedicated circuit?
Your portable is 50 amp, does that mean it requires 62.5+ rated outlet to plug into? Or have I got things backrearwards?

Electric Vehicle Service equipment is considered by the national electrical code to be a continous load. This is because the charger will operate at full capacity for more than 3 hours. NEC Article 210.20(a) then goes on to explain that for continuous loads the circuit must be rated for 125% of the capacity of the load (charger).

What this means is chargers with a 50 amp plug are limited to a maximum rating of 40 amps or
80% of the circuit rating. An 80 amp charger would require a 100 amp circuit (125% of the chargers rating). The higher trim lightnings have an 80 amp maximum charger onboard.

 

[Armadillo]

Charlieman22, to address your questions in my previous post.

The wire ideally should be 6awg copper for the current carying conductors. Your ground can be as small as 10awg. There are some cases where 8awg may be used such as THHN conductors in conduit. The breaker should match the wiring and devices installed. The breaker's purpose is to protect the wiring in the building from overloads and short circuits.

You may use the leftover wire to run the neutral if you want to swap the outlet. Just clearly identify it with white electrical tape on both ends. Technically by the new nec code they want you to use white for smaller conductors, and not reidentify the wire, but it is common practice and there is no issue doing this. As hturnerfamily mentioned, the onboard charger in the truck, or any EV for that matter does not use the neutral. You could as a quick fix swap the outlet out and label it as not having a neutral. It is good practice though, whenever possible, to install the neutral, but it will work.

Please consider using a quality industrial 14-50R such as the Hubbell 9450. The cheaper outlets that some of the hardware stores sell are not upto the task of heavy ev charging and are known to wear out and melt. Also make sure the connections are very tight, properly torqued down.

Regarding your question on three phase chargers. Think of the charging cable (evse) as a smart extension cord. The actual AC charger is built into the truck, this charger is single phase, as are all onboard chargers in North America. You can connect a single phase charger to a three phase service by connecting it to any two phases in the three phase panel. A true three phase charger would be a Level 3 DC fast charger, and would be prohibitively expensive.

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