Pro Charging Station to NEMA 14-50

[Ruination]

Neither of us is a battery expert. I am basing my comments on two things, ownership of four Teslas, from an early 2012, through a current MX, and seeing the degradation (mostly lack thereof) in my cars vs others with more cavalier charging habits, and second, Elon Musk's statements about level 2 charging and speed, as well as recommended storage levels - he specifically said that charging slower is better due to lower heat, and maintaining at 60% (instead of the default 90%) increases battery life. Another data point is the most recent Apple charging algorithms for the latest Macbook Pros, which allow SOC to drop without recharging, based on its analysis of user habits, and then charges slowly, not using the full amps available from the newest big brick chargers that come with the computers, to a level below 100%. Their explanation for why they do this is that gentler charging, at lower amps and heat, with less use of lithium battery extremes (zero SOC or 100% SOC) has proven to increase battery life, so they've figured out how to maximize this in the latest algorithms. Now, if you want the latest Apple laptop to show 100% SOC or to charge at the max available rate, you need to over-ride the default battery settings. If that's true for small lithium ion batteries, there's no reason it isn't true for an EV. And Elon said it, so I beleive it anyway.

So, what are you going to charge your lightning at?

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[adoublee]

Nope. Cold does not damage the battery, just delays its charging while the battery heats up to the required level to take a charge. But excessive heat during charging, or repeated fast charging, which generates more heat than slower charging, does reduce battery life. Batteries actually prefer cold storage for long periods. I once sat in my earliest Tesla Model S (vin 1,609) at a ski resort in Maine attached to a level 2 charger, watching my state of charge go backwards in minus 10 degrees F temps, on the phone with Tesla, who were also watching in real time, while the battery spent two hours getting up to warm enough temps to begin taking a charge. That was a long day and hard lesson learned.

"Many battery users are unaware that consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium occurs on the anode during a sub-freezing charge that leads to a permanent degradation in performance and safety. Batteries with lithium plating are more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful conditions. Advanced chargers (Cadex) prevent charging Li-ion below freezing.
.
.

Li-ion batteries charging below 0°C (32°F) must undergo regulatory issue to certify that no lithium plating will occur. In addition, a specially designed charger will keep the allotted current and voltage within a safe limit throughout the temperature bandwidth. Certification of such batteries and chargers are very costly that will reflect in the price. Similar regulatory requirements also apply to intrinsically safe batteries (See BU-304: Why Are Protection Circuits Needed?)

There are cell and charger manufacturers claiming to charge Li-ion at low temperatures; however, most companies do not want to take the risk of potential failure and assume liability. Yes, Li-ion will charge at low temperature but research labs dissecting these batteries see concerning results."

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-410-charging-at-high-and-low-temperatures

 

[jefro]

If one plugs in their car or truck when they stop driving it then the automatic battery heater will run on AC. The battery should not get cold as long as there is power in the main battery.

 

[beatle]

"Many battery users are unaware that consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be charging normally, plating of metallic lithium occurs on the anode during a sub-freezing charge that leads to a permanent degradation in performance and safety. Batteries with lithium plating are more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful conditions. Advanced chargers (Cadex) prevent charging Li-ion below freezing.
.
.

Li-ion batteries charging below 0°C (32°F) must undergo regulatory issue to certify that no lithium plating will occur. In addition, a specially designed charger will keep the allotted current and voltage within a safe limit throughout the temperature bandwidth. Certification of such batteries and chargers are very costly that will reflect in the price. Similar regulatory requirements also apply to intrinsically safe batteries (See BU-304: Why Are Protection Circuits Needed?)

There are cell and charger manufacturers claiming to charge Li-ion at low temperatures; however, most companies do not want to take the risk of potential failure and assume liability. Yes, Li-ion will charge at low temperature but research labs dissecting these batteries see concerning results."

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-410-charging-at-high-and-low-temperatures

I'd think the car would simply use the juice from the connector to power the battery heater until the battery is warm enough to take a charge. The connector or charger doesn't need to be smart if the BMS simply directs the flow of electrons to the appropriate device based on temperature.

As for the Model S "going backwards" while charging - I'm guessing it was on a L2 charger that provided less than 6kw which is the power output of the battery heater. 40A has been plenty for my Model S that stays in a garage, but my truck will have to live outside, so I'll use the 80A Ford connector. I'll want the available power to be high enough to warm the battery concurrently with the battery charging, and to have more power to warm or cool the cabin before leaving for a trip and charge the battery to 100% at the same time.

 

[Tony Burgh]

It would be great if the pro charger had software switches in addition to internal dip switches to reduce charge levels down from 80 amps. That way based on SOC and time available to charge the charge level could be minimized through programming or software selection.

 

[beatle]

The onboard charger (rectifier) in the vehicle will limit the amount of juice going into the battery as it approaches 100% SOC, or if the battery is too cold to accept full power. It will be controlled by the vehicle's BMS.

You don't want the connector on the wall providing the intelligence to charge your car as any number of vehicles may be able to plug into it with their own charging algorithms that may actually change over the course of the vehicle's lifetime.

 

[jefro]

On most EV's (except whacky Tesla's) there is no onboard way to set L2 charge rate from the dashboard.

All EVSE's should have a mechanical limit to prevent it from over current. It's a safety issue to allow a charger to be easily changed from it's install limited wiring. Wabastco ? makes the Ford EVSE's.

If one has a high state of power on the EVSE then the car or truck can set the maximum charge rate lower by it's signal to to the EVSE. The onboard charger doesn't limit the charge other than a communication to the EVSE.

The truck battery will never get really cold unless it runs out of power. It is always able to heat and cool the battery. Some of the early EV's had no thermal management and the batteries suffered. Tesla's have a way to start conditioning the battery if it thinks you are near a super charger to slightly improve the charge rate.

 

[MickeyAO]

Neither of us is a battery expert. I am basing my comments on two things, ownership of four Teslas, from an early 2012, through a current MX, and seeing the degradation (mostly lack thereof) in my cars vs others with more cavalier charging habits, and second, Elon Musk's statements about level 2 charging and speed, as well as recommended storage levels - he specifically said that charging slower is better due to lower heat, and maintaining at 60% (instead of the default 90%) increases battery life. Another data point is the most recent Apple charging algorithms for the latest Macbook Pros, which allow SOC to drop without recharging, based on its analysis of user habits, and then charges slowly, not using the full amps available from the newest big brick chargers that come with the computers, to a level below 100%. Their explanation for why they do this is that gentler charging, at lower amps and heat, with less use of lithium battery extremes (zero SOC or 100% SOC) has proven to increase battery life, so they've figured out how to maximize this in the latest algorithms. Now, if you want the latest Apple laptop to show 100% SOC or to charge at the max available rate, you need to over-ride the default battery settings. If that's true for small lithium ion batteries, there's no reason it isn't true for an EV. And Elon said it, so I beleive it anyway.

I thought we had a battery expert on here that has already answered this question

 

[GDN]

On most if not all EV's there is no onboard way to set L2 charge rate from the dashboard.

All EVSE's should have a mechanical limit to prevent it from over current. It's a safety issue to allow a charger to be easily changed from it's install limited wiring. Wabastco ? makes the Ford EVSE's.

If one has a high state of power on the EVSE then the car or truck can set the maximum charge rate lower by it's signal to to the EVSE. The onboard charger doesn't limit the charge other than a communication to the EVSE.

The truck battery will never get really cold unless it runs out of power. It is always able to heat and cool the battery. Some of the early EV's had no thermal management and the batteries suffered. Tesla's have a way to start conditioning the battery if it thinks you are near a super charger to slightly improve the charge rate.

Unfortunately all you have to do to look at the leader to know that isn't true. I can set the amperage from the car and the app on my Tesla's.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

@PungoteagueDave, people argued the efficiency claim with me for over a week before I finally just dropped it completely. While I'm not a "battery expert" I have built EVSEs and have seen the efficiency numbers on the components--the differences between 120v vs. 240v are not enough to bother doing the calculations...although I did invite anyone making that claim to post their calculations; none did.

I posted then that the so-called "efficiency" differences were mis-attributed losses that occur while sub-systems are "on." As you know, when charging an EV the vehicle is pretty much on while sitting idle. The brains, the componentry, etc. all have some level of parasitic draw. When something is charging for double-digit hours vs. single-digit hours those parasitic draws can add up.

That said, I find it humorous that the rebuttal to charging slower has now become that a faster charge generating too much heat can be mitigated by the coolant system. It's true, but it's silly because the coolant system is going to suck up enormous amounts of juice compared to either the parasitic losses or the 1-2% difference in efficiency between charging at 120v vs. 240v that was the source of so much agitation over my earlier comments.

yeah, when charging on Level 2 at max amps, my car can sound like it is ready to take off. My wife complains that she can hear it on the third floor. I have no idea the power usage trade-off, but it is clear the battery reaches a point where the charging process has is heated more than optimally for continued charging at current temps, and must be cooled to continue charging at max rate.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

So, what are you going to charge your lightning at?

As low as possible to reach my target SOC by the time I plan to next use the truck. Probably 20 amps for overnight charging. The Tesla figures it out on its own - you tell it the target SOC and intended departure time, and it decides how/when to charge. We'll see what the Ford algorithm is for charging and decide then.

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