Easy way to safely access backup power for home and free (for some PG&E customers)

[hturnerfamily]

can you use ProPower and charge the Lightning at the same time...

yes, absolutely, and I do it quite often, and you can easily test it yourself:
A) plug in at home to charge, then turn on the ProPower and plug something into any of your outlets - they work.
B) plug in at any DC Fast Charger, then turn on the ProPower and plug something into any of your outlets, they work.

so, the answer is easy: yes.

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[hturnerfamily]

...So I put in solar long ago. Since I already have it, I'd like to be able to use it.
[AGREED: if you've already 'invested' in Solar, then, by all means, FIND A WAY TO USE IT : ) ]

Thus far, when the grid goes down, so does my solar as it requires a small amount of power for its microinverters. [ this is the problem that most 'grid-tie' owners face, unfortunately : / ]

It was cool to be able to use the Lightning as my backup during our recent outage.

But, I was unable to use my solar (which, by itself could power pretty much my whole house).

So, to be able to use both the Lightning AND the solar would be ideal. [ Agreed!! ]

The PG&E transfer switch device powers my entire main panel!
They stipulate, though, in the instructions, to switch off the solar (if you have it) feeder breaker in your panel before hooking up your backup device (they assume a generator).

But, because my whole panel is now powered up via the Lightning, I can plug in the L8ightning to charge using my Emporia charger.
I would have to watch loads carefully, but now could close in the solar feeder breaker.

Because the solar microinverters are [now] getting power from the Lightning, all would be in phase and the solar would now pick up all the loads and be charging the Lightning.

When the solar output dropped because of clouds or darkness, the Lightning would pick up the load.

Again, this is strictly theoretical at this point, and in writing this, now I see a flaw.

There always needs to be a path for any excess solar to go.
[ This is not the case, as the solar output, via the MicroInverters, simply is a 'grid' of power, just like your Utility power from PG&E. If you 'need' power, it provides it, and if you don't, it doesn't 'have' to go anywhere, it just doesn't get used. The MicroInverters don't 'push' power, they simply are there to PROVIDE power, as needed. You wouldn't/shouldn't have any issue with this setup. ]

If the house loads and the Lightning charge rate are less than the solar power produced, you're screwed and will likely ruin your solar setup.

However, if all your loads are high, more will be drawn from the Lightning battery as necessary. [ exactly right ]
That might be good. You might even add artificial loads. Also, if someone made a variable charger that would vary the charge rate based on the power available..... Hmmmm???



One fundamental question though is can you use ProPower and charge the Lightning at the same time. [ answer: absolutely ]
I should easily be able to test that. Any other thoughts? I'll continue to research.

This is almost the exact same scenario I was looking to 'build' in my west-central Georgia home, adding some high-output BIFACIAL panels on my metal shed roof, and MicroInverters for 240v DIRECT output. No separate inverter. No separate 'panel'. Simple.
And, yes, theoretically it can 'work', but the real question, at least for me, was the COST versus the potential ROI(return on that cost, over time), and whether there is any real need to Charge the truck, or any EV, with the solar output.

NO, I could not bring myself to either have ENOUGH solar panels, or ENOUGH money sunk into the MANY panels I would need, to make it 'work' in most any real-world Utility outage scenario.

A) I already have an expensive Battery for whole house backup POWER - the LIGHTNING : )

B) If I created an additional 2.4kwh Solar system, which could have MicroInverters producing 240v output, at 10 amps, or 120v output, at 20 amps, I could, yes, feed the house for whole house power, WHEN the sun is out, for limited usage. This might consist of at least 8 300w panels, but probably at least 10 for more constant output to that amperage, and the appropriate numbers of MicroInverters.

C) A larger system for constant EV Charging, though, would require MUCH MORE power output. This might be at least a 5kw system, with an expected 240v output at 20amps, with at least 16-20 solar panels, now all GROUND MOUNTED. Obviously, twice the pricing.

so, with those in mind, I find two more things very CONCERNING, and what has made me draw back from considering a solar system:

1) Georgia Power does not provide for net/zero metering. They do have some accommodations for solar, but the 'pay back' of only a few cents per kWh is not enough to warrant the cost of the system, otherwise, EVEN if you offset most all of your own power needs, and ONLY those power consumptions DURING the SUNLIGHT generation hours of the panels, themselves - meaning that you have to USE a large amount of amperage throughout those hours to be able to then 'offset' those amps with your solar. With my home's usage, during the sunlight hours, being only 3-4 kWh MAX during any of those given hours, any system that is LARGER than that is simply overspending on solar.

2) secondly, and taking from the first concern, if you size your solar system to accommodate the 'max' SUNLIGHT hours usage, per kwh, you are only receiving a 'payback' offset IF you use those MAX amps during EACH of those hours, CONSTANTLY. That's unlikely. Very unlikely. And, if your system is not designed to carry a 240v 20amp load CONSTANTLY during EVERY sunlight hour, the idea of CHARGING an EV becomes almost impossible. The EVSE can't be continually cutting on and off during loss of the required minimum power, which even for Adjustable EVSE modules, is maybe 12amps, but probably more like 16. If you consider a 120v EVSE, well, sure, it might power this constantly, but, yet, you are taking "FOREVER" to make any real dent in your charging needs.

I just can't make it 'work' for me, but those in net/zero metering where you can 'sell back' your excess solar, and at a GOOD price, 'might' make sense, although I'll bet that in most roof solar situations, anywhere, this is rarely the case. Yes, the homeowner feels 'good' that they have an offset to 'expensive' Utility cost, but, at what cost for their solar system in the first place?

Also, since you can't use 'grid tie' Solar when the very Utility power is down, you are then put into a place where MORE money is spent finding an answer to that, too. Batteries are expensive, especially if you purchase them when you already own a LIGHTNING, with at least a HUGE 100kwh battery pack of it's own, and much more useful than any other 'type' of battery that sits in a storage room.


oh well. I feel good that what I have is sufficient, and what I 'could' have is, yes, available, and would 'work', but the cost versus the ROI, or end goal, financial, doesn't work for my needs.

Good Luck!

 

[InTheCloud]

Nice! It was definitely NOT there about 6 weeks ago when I filled out my application. The spreadsheet at that time (ending in -5) had these entries for Ford:

I just got an email from PG&E to apply for this program, and the drop-down list for Ford is exactly as shown, with no option for "F150".

 

[dmd3home]

What even ARE any of the Ford options? Are they Ford generators?
All I know is that I did have one of the generators listed so signed up for the program....a PG&E contractor came out about three weeks later and installed it in about 5 mins and left the cord and a basic instruction sheet (no charge). I was not home but saw it happen on my security cameras. No one (of course I wasn't home) asked to see my generator. I don't think the installers care in the least what equipment you have.
But, the test came about 6 weeks later when we lost power for about 4 hours. I backed the Lightning up to my meter, opened the main breaker, open my solar input breaker, hooked up the cord and turned on the Lightning......it powered up the whole house!!! Of course I had to watch my loads...avoided AC, oven and electric stove etc., but it all worked very well. I was pleased to see that when grid power returned about 4 hours later, the transfer switch auto-transferred back to grid power (no need to have my neighbors tell me power was back).....and, I had only used about 5 miles of range off my truck.
So, if you are in PG&E land, I encourage you to sign up for the program. There are very few positive things to say about PG&E, but this is one of them. Of course they are concerned about people complaining about "power safety shut offs" and rolling power shut offs so they're trying to keep people happy with an alternative. I'm pretty happy!

 

[tls]

I guess PG&E's transfer switch, unlike the Generlink, must isolate the ground wire from the F150 - or perhaps the cord they supply does?

If they just isolate the ground inside their enclosure, but the neutral and ground remain bonded at the panel, what's the risk here really? This seems like an inherent advantage to doing this at the service entrance, before the panel. Even if they just omit the ground from their cord, I suppose the result is an electrocution risk if one unplugs the meter-base end of the cord while energized and wet - but no worse.

This I know: if the _utility_ lifts the ground like this, there's no NEC issue. They are not subject to NEC. But if they do it inside the ring they add to the meter base, isn't it even perfectly safe?

 

[Runaway Tractor]

I just reviewed all of the instructions, fact sheets, spec sheets, etc. from PG&E on this thing. Nowhere on any document or their website. Is there any message at all of floating neutral versus bonded neutral generators. The generators on their list are a variety of both floating, neutral and bonded neutral generators. It appears that they have decided to simply ignore that matter. Since probably 90% of homeowners using generators have no clue what any of that means, nor will they ever understand what it means, I guess they're just making their program match reality. Nobody is getting hurt or killed with a bonded neutral generator. So reality is, it's easier for them to just go with reality.

I have no idea how it's actually working properly with a lightning. The only thing I can think of is the unit is detecting the bond at the truck, and therefore not connecting the ground from the truck. That would actually be brilliant on their part. And if that's what they're doing, not surprising they did not write that down in any of the documentation. I wouldn't either.

 

[Maquis]

I just reviewed all of the instructions, fact sheets, spec sheets, etc. from PG&E on this thing. Nowhere on any document or their website. Is there any message at all of floating neutral versus bonded neutral generators. The generators on their list are a variety of both floating, neutral and bonded neutral generators. It appears that they have decided to simply ignore that matter. Since probably 90% of homeowners using generators have no clue what any of that means, nor will they ever understand what it means, I guess they're just making their program match reality. Nobody is getting hurt or killed with a bonded neutral generator. So reality is, it's easier for them to just go with reality.

I have no idea how it's actually working properly with a lightning. The only thing I can think of is the unit is detecting the bond at the truck, and therefore not connecting the ground from the truck. That would actually be brilliant on their part. And if that's what they're doing, not surprising they did not write that down in any of the documentation. I wouldn't either.

Since there is no separate ground connection in the meter. My guess is they connect 3 wires from the generator, L-N-L, just like the 3 wires from their transformer and ignore the ground wire from the generator.

 

[Runaway Tractor]

Since there is no separate ground connection in the meter. My guess is they connect 3 wires from the generator, L-N-L, just like the 3 wires from their transformer and ignore the ground wire from the generator.

Yeah that's actually more likely than sensing whether it should use it or not. The connector and cable have all 4. But I bet if you tear open the device, the ground goes nowhere.

 

[GDN]

Since there is no separate ground connection in the meter. My guess is they connect 3 wires from the generator, L-N-L, just like the 3 wires from their transformer and ignore the ground wire from the generator.

Really nice observation. The ground is inside the panel in the house. There isn't one in the meter. Kind of answers what they are doing.

Now what does that say about Generlink that won't work with the truck, but also plugs in behind the meter and shouldn't have a ground connection?

 

[Maquis]

Really nice observation. The ground is inside the panel in the house. There isn't one in the meter. Kind of answers what they are doing.

Now what does that say about Generlink that won't work with the truck, but also plugs in behind the meter and shouldn't have a ground connection?

Good question.

 

[tls]

Really nice observation. The ground is inside the panel in the house. There isn't one in the meter. Kind of answers what they are doing.

Now what does that say about Generlink that won't work with the truck, but also plugs in behind the meter and shouldn't have a ground connection?

I don't think we know the Generlink doesn't work - I think we just have no report that it *does* work.

If it doesn't work, I suspect it's because it ties the ground pin on its receptacle to the meter enclosure, which is probably effectively (though not as a code requirement) tied to ground in many installations by metallic conduit either going into the ground or to the main panel.

 

[dmd3home]

​

OK, here's the back up power cable supplied by PG&E....it has a standard twist-loc plug for connecting to the Lightning and, what I assume is a standard generator input connector on the other end. Yes, there are four conductors at each end of the cable....L,N,L, and ground. I checked continuity through the cable for each conductor and found that YES, as was speculated by some, the ground conductor DOES NOT PASS THROUGH THE CABLE FROM THE LIGHTNING TO THE METER CONNECTOR. There is actually just L-N-L making the connection....no ground! And yes, as this connects right to the meter, upstream from your main breaker and panel, no ground is required.This must be why it's working with no GFIC tripping problems. It just works!​

Is there a safety issue? The truck circuitry is still protected by its built in GFIC and the house is presumably protected by its own circuitry. The truck maintains its own ground as does the house. Is an ungrounded cable an issue when both ends have their own (though different) grounds? Hmmmm.​

I'm guessing that PG&E, being a large electric utility, has thoroughly looked at this. I'm just pleased that it works and is a great and easy solution to what I thought was going to be a difficult problem. Thank you PG&E.​

 

[frautumn]

It just works!

Have you had a chance to test with it yet and verify that it works? I don't recall anyone on the thread other than the OP verifying that it works. I have mine but haven't been able to verify it works yet since I haven't had a power outage since getting it.

 

[dmd3home]

Yes, as I stated previously, we had a 4 hour outage a few weeks ago....I backed my truck up to my panel, opened main breaker and solar input breaker, hooked up cord, closed main breaker and started lightning Pro Power. It took 5 mins to set up and powered entire house (avoiding AC and large loads of course). It auto transfers back to grid when that comes back. I used only about 5 miles of range off the truck. It works!
The question always though, as with a generator, is, is this a short 5 min power outage?...or a long one? Is it worth setting it all up and then have the grid come back in 5 mins? This is where an integrated home battery backup or the "Ford Intelligent Backup Power" has an advantage, but at a large additional expense. I like the free PG&E cord option!

 

[Simpso57]

I figured out why some users see the Ford F-150 on the compatible list, and some do not. That is because there are two different lists. If you go to the Back Power Transfer Meter Program (BPTM) website and download that spreadsheet, it is not in the list. But if you go to the Generator Rebate website and download the list, it contains several tabs, one of which is "BPTM Compatible Generators" and the F-150 is on the list.

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