Automakers Face A Threat To EV Sales: Slow Charging Times

[EaglesPDX]

The Lightning could absolutely use faster charging.

Well everything could but is it a critical factor as the AP story claims? No.

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[beatle]

150kw on a vehicle with a battery the capacity of the F150 is not nearly as "quick" as a

This is true, BUT the a Model 3 would get about 4 miles/kWh and a F-150 gets about 2 mi/kWh, which means it's more like charging a Model 3 at 75kW. And if you're towing, you're probably getting ~1 mi/kWh and that's like charging a Model 3 at 37kW.

The Lightning could absolutely use faster charging. I don't think it will be a deal-breaker for me, but it's not great.

This is a good point. The F150 battery is absolutely huge to offset its higher energy consumption to propel it down the road. My Model S supercharges on average of 85kw when charging from 10 to 50% full in about 22 minutes. That's kinda slow by today's standards, as a newer model 3 that can get from 10-50% in just 13 minutes. My battery has an effective capacity of around 74kwh now. Though we don't know the F150's pack size for sure, I'd wager it's around 150kwh given its higher energy consumption. To get from 10-50% in an F150 in the same time as my Model S, it would need to average 170kw in that range, and to go from 10-50 in 13 minutes like a Model 3, it would need to average a 276kw charge rate!

As Blainestang said, this might not be a dealbreaker, especially if you're not towing, but if you are, be ready to be charging a lot!

Hopefully Ford is able to increase the rate of charging via software. Being able to hit a 1.7 C charge rate seems like a reasonable goal.

 

[Blainestang]

Few offered or sold and discontinued due to high demand.

It was actually discontinued due to LOW demand.

It made little sense to buy a $35k Model 3 with 220 miles of range without Autopilot when the $38k version had 240 miles of range and autopilot.

 

[Blainestang]

Well everything could but is it a critical factor as the AP story claims? No.

I'm just responding to your implication that it's fine because Tesla charges at 150kW, too, which isn't apples to apples. A Model 3 is twice as efficient so the effective charge rate (miles/minute) is double even if the raw kW rate is the same.

I think it's still good, and I'm planning to get one, especially at $39k before credits, BUT it's going to take notably longer than a Mach E or Tesla for trips, and towing more than 100 miles could be rough. That's going to be early-adopter type use case.

It is a threat to EV sales, BUT I do believe Ford will still have PLENTY of demand to eat up all the Lightnings they can build. So, I think supply is a bigger issue than demand for Ford.

 

[astricklin]

The lightning is not for people who tow long distances. Those customers should just buy the powerboost hybrid model.

 

[ChasingCoral]

Interesting article. Will the FordPass Network charging stations provide fast DC charging, and if so, how fast for an extended-range battery?

The major vendor in the FordPass network is Electrify America. Almost all of their stations have at least 150kW charging and probably half of those have 350kW charging. EA is retrofitting stations to add more 350kW chargers while at the same time they are installing new charging stations. Swing by one at a nearby Walmart to check it out.

 

[ChasingCoral]

I have owned a couple EV cars - first was a hyrid Fusion so ignore that...but we owned a Chevy Bolt for a year, then we bought a Tesla Model 3 in 2019. Honestly the whole charging thing is really not bad but admittedly I am biased from Tesla's network of chargers. Using Tesla as the example, here's what they have done between massive network of charging and tools built into the car for the driver. I drove from Northern CA (east of Sacramento) to Disneyland with the Tesla. We have the AWD long distance version, so at 100% that's about 320miles.... when you use the navigation in the Tesla you see a list of charge locations along your route. You can even set a variety of parameters like how low do you want your battery to go before you charge. There are also some websites that take it a step further that allow you to overlay your battery %, how fast you will drive, how long do you want to stay at a charge station etc. and it will plot your route - including stops - via Googlemaps - and then send it to your car.

Yes it would be nice to see a charge time closer to what we've become used to when we stop at a gas station, but it's not an "all or nothing" discussion.

So back to my example from N-Cal to Disneyland... we stopped 2 times, each time we spent about 10-12 mins max at a charging station. We didn't need to get back to 80% or 100% battery charge - we just needed charged to an amount (with buffer of course) for reaching our next charge.

Pre-Covid I did that drive every year for 8+ years with my family. Taking the Tesla added about 20 minutes each direction - and total charging costs for round trip were about $32.

Meanwhile at home with a 50amp service for our charger, we can do a near 0 to full charge in about 5 1/2 hours so obviously not an issue when thinking about being ready for the next day.

I know this is a bit - a lot - long winded - but really the amount of tools/technology + rapidly expanding charger infrastructure and we are still at least 12-18 months before we see any F150 EV's, this is only going to get better.

I've had a Nissan Leaf for three years and a Mustang Mach E since February. The story using the CCS charging network is the same as @byebyediesel describes for Tesla. Just after receiving our Mach E we drove from MD to SW FL, spent three weeks in FL with three trips to the east coast and several up and down the SW cities. After we drove back to MD.

We stopped once in each state to charge except FL: once each in VA, NC, SC, GA and twice in FL. Charging too about 30 minutes for 20-80% and just over 35 for 10-80%. Many times we didn't need to charge 80%, we just charged as far as we needed plus a 5% buffer. The built-in Ford Navigation was awesome. We entered the address of our destination (Marco down, Silver Spring MD back) and the navigation figured in all the charging stops. We then decided where to stop for the night, picked a hotel with a free charger on-site and use L2 charging while we slept. The next morning the navigation recalculated the route and sent us along our way.

The charging stations were often at Walmarts and many of those had restaurants around to get lunch or dinner while we charged. A 30 minute charging stop may seem long until you figure in the reality of gas stops. Even if you are only getting gas and hitting the restroom, someone has to mind the car/truck while getting gas, then go in to the restroom. With a BEV you don't have to mind the charging. Everyone can go inside at the same time for restroom or meal stops. Overnight charging at a hotel happens while you sleep. We found there wasn't much downtime at our charging stops, so it really doesn't add as much time as you might think.

 

[sotek2345]

I've had a Nissan Leaf for three years and a Mustang Mach E since February. The story using the CCS charging network is the same as @byebyediesel describes for Tesla. Just after receiving our Mach E we drove from MD to SW FL, spent three weeks in FL with three trips to the east coast and several up and down the SW cities. After we drove back to MD.

We stopped once in each state to charge except FL: once each in VA, NC, SC, GA and twice in FL. Charging too about 30 minutes for 20-80% and just over 35 for 10-80%. Many times we didn't need to charge 80%, we just charged as far as we needed plus a 5% buffer. The built-in Ford Navigation was awesome. We entered the address of our destination (Marco down, Silver Spring MD back) and the navigation figured in all the charging stops. We then decided where to stop for the night, picked a hotel with a free charger on-site and use L2 charging while we slept. The next morning the navigation recalculated the route and sent us along our way.

The charging stations were often at Walmarts and many of those had restaurants around to get lunch or dinner while we charged. A 30 minute charging stop may seem long until you figure in the reality of gas stops. Even if you are only getting gas and hitting the restroom, someone has to mind the car/truck while getting gas, then go in to the restroom. With a BEV you don't have to mind the charging. Everyone can go inside at the same time for restroom or meal stops. Overnight charging at a hotel happens while you sleep. We found there wasn't much downtime at our charging stops, so it really doesn't add as much time as you might think.

How do you search for hotels with charging?

 

[Blainestang]

How do you search for hotels with charging?

@ChasingCoral can answer as well, but I've used Plugshare in the past.

You can use their "Trip Planner" if you log in and it will show you your route and you can tell it how far off the route you're willing to go to get to a charger (say, 2 miles), and it will show every charger along your route within 2 miles of the route.

Also, Plugshare is the best website/app, currently, for figuring out how good/reliable/etc. any particular charger is. It's user filled, but it shows photos and recent check-ins so you can see if people have recently used it successfully, if it's commonly blocked, etc.

 

[sotek2345]

@ChasingCoral can answer as well, but I've used Plugshare in the past.

You can use their "Trip Planner" if you log in and it will show you your route and you can tell it how far off the route you're willing to go to get to a charger (say, 2 miles), and it will show every charger along your route within 2 miles of the route.

Also, Plugshare is the best website/app, currently, for figuring out how good/reliable/etc. any particular charger is. It's user filled, but it shows photos and recent check-ins so you can see if people have recently used it successfully, if it's commonly blocked, etc.

I have been trying plug share without much luck. We travel to Toronto quite a bit so I was looking to see what hotels near there have chargers. According to plug share there aren't any (closest I could find was a charger about 4 miles from the airport hotel). I just can't believe a city that size has no hotels with chargers.

 

[MickeyAO]

I have been trying plug share without much luck. We travel to Toronto quite a bit so I was looking to see what hotels near there have chargers. According to plug share there aren't any (closest I could find was a charger about 4 miles from the airport hotel). I just can't believe a city that size has no hotels with chargers.

Check your filters...you may only be seeing free chargers.

 

[sotek2345]

Check your filters...you may only be seeing free chargers.

No, definitely had paid chargers turned on. Maybe I just need to play around more. Can always just call hotels anyways. Would be really nice if Expedia (or similar listed it as a searchable amenity)

Edit: Hotels.com let's you search by it. Nice!

 

[solarity]

We got a Premium AWD Std range Mach-E and charge once every 3 or 4 days from 20-40% to 90%. I wonder how much time we will save by not having to go to the pump? It will be nice in winter. As DC fast chargers become more common along interstates, I think things will improve a lot. That is the only thing that concerns me, though it will come.

I currently have Plat PB lost in Ramp59. I might swap to a lighting, if it takes much longer. I think I would enjoy it more than a PB. I want a pickup to haul things locally and to tow a boat within my region on occasion. Getting a Lighting would also future proof me from getting camper. My wife wants to get one, though I don't.

With a 300+ mile range, I think that would get me as far as I want to go. I hate long road trips. Even if we go about 300 miles, I would want to stop to eat and I could charge then.

 

[EaglesPDX]

It made little sense to buy a $35k Model 3 with 220 miles of range without Autopilot when the $38k version had 240 miles of range and autopilot.

Tesla canceled as it did not pencil out as profitable.

Lowest price Model 3 is $40k.

 

[EaglesPDX]

That's kinda slow by today's standards, as a newer model 3 that can get from 10-50% in just 13 minutes. My battery has an effective capacity of around 74kwh now.

But that's not real world. Ford MachE aveages 92kWh vs. Tesla Model 3's 86kWh as just one example but Tesla is rated to 250kW while MachE at 150kW.

Then there's the charging curves, Tesla drops fast from max and MachE has similar curve. What will the F150EV have, who knows.

Charging curves, temp, battery state, charger state, just so many variables in actual charging.

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