SunRun Require PV (Photovoltaic) system with F150 Lightning use as home back-up power

[Charlie101]

I just talked to Sunrun and Ford. Sunrun says I have to install a photovoltaic system on my roof in order to use the battery in the F1 50 Lightning to serve my house. Ford Customer Service couldn’t tell me if that was true or not. Not looking forward to paying 30 or $40,000 more on top of 80 or $90,000 for the truck. I probably need to reconsider my reservation.

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[Blainestang]

Wow, I'm hoping you just talked to a scummy solar salesman or there's a wire crossed or something.*

There's clearly no technical reason why you would HAVE to have solar for your truck to work as a backup.

I'm going to guess that there's no way Ford will let Sunrun make solar a requirement and sour everyone's experience with the Lightning... but I'd love to hear it from Ford or Sunrun.

Tweeting Mike Levine might work. Maybe Sunrun if they're active.

*There is a requirement for getting the solar tax credit toward stationary storage batteries that they be charged exclusively by solar and not the grid (that's why Powerwalls attached to solar only charge from Solar and not the grid except perhaps when a major storm is coming), but you're not trying to get the SOLAR tax credit for your "batteries" because the battery is your truck.

 

[Lime Green]

No such need to install solar. But before I label Sun Run as a shady dealer/ installer or whatever, I’m going to say that certain states and muicipalities have their own requirements and agreements with utility providers. For example, I’m in Colorado and we were not allowed to have battery backup storage on our solar systems until very recently. In some places a dedicated battery backup system is only allowed on certain renewable or natural sources like solar and wind so that energy captured from them can be used when those sources are not actively producing. But we should be fine feeding power back from the truck because it’s not a “dedicated” backup source and is technically no different than plugging in a generator.

While it’s possible they just want to sell you a solar setup along with the install/changes to use your truck as backup power, there could actually be a local ordinance or legal requirement that only allows battery backup power if you have a solar array.

You may need to do some more asking around and see what the deal is. Could be a lot more to it. Or maybe not. Technically it shouldn’t be an issue. Using the truck as backup power only feeds back energy that you have already captured from the grid, which would be metered and therefore paid for. From a technical perspective, it’s no different than if you use one of the existing F-150s with built-in generator to supply your home. But power companies or local laws don’t always view it that way.

 

[biers]

If you put up even one panel you can get the federal tax credit on the rest of the electrical work. Anyone ready for tax reform?

 

[Bandit216]

Sorry, they are partially correct. In order for any home power input source (solar, generator, F150 battery) to automatically supply power into your home's electrical system when the power fails, it must have a failsafe and automatic method to isolate your home from the commercial power grid. It's called "islanding" and is designed to keep your emergency power source from back feeding to the grid and killing the electric company's linemen. It's not optional and you can't legally just manually turn your input power breaker off at the breaker box.

That's why, if you read the Lightning's literature closely you'll see that if you want to use the F150 to power your home in an emergency you not only need the 80 amp Ford power station (which is included with the LR battery) you will also need a DC to AC power inverter (at $1500-$2000 + installation) which is apparently NOT included.

I believe that is what the solar people really should be saying. For automatic home power backup using your Lightning, you don't need to install an entire solar array but you will need to install an inverter just like the ones that solar companies install with solar arrays with emergency battery backup. This inverter will act as the interface between the battery and home and converts the DC current coming from the truck (thru the CCS pins) into AC that the house needs. The inverter also provides the same safety function that a generator transfer switch would perform - the "islanding". When you look at the pictures and diagrams Ford provided, you can see the separate inverter that is wired between the houses power supply and the Ford 80Amp power station.

Here is a picture of how my backup power system is configured. The 100 amp subpanel provides the commercial power source for the inverter and has output breakers for a 50 amp outlet and the 60 amp Ford power station on the column in the foreground. (Only one of those output breakers is powered on at a time). When commercial power goes out, the inverter instantly senses it and my backup battery provides power to the critical circuits. The battery is, in turn, recharged by either my solar array or a generator (the transfer switch function for the generator is also a part of the inverter). But my solar and generator input are irrelevant to this discussion. You will still need at least the inverter part of this system to safely and legally provide F150 emergency power to your home. Of course, as a fallback, you could run extension cords from the Lightnings outlets to some of your critical home systems.

 

[shikataganai]

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-...or-the-All-Electric-Ford-F-150-Lightning.html

SAN FRANCISCO, May 19, 2021 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Sunrun (Nasdaq: RUN), the nation’s leading home solar, battery storage, and energy services provider, today announced its partnership with Ford Motor Company (NYSE: F) to serve as the preferred installer for Ford Intelligent Backup Power, debuting on the all-electric F-150 Lightning. Sunrun will facilitate easy installation of the 80-amp Ford Charge Station Pro and home integration system.

With Ford Intelligent Backup Power, enabled by the available 80-amp Ford Charge Station Pro and home integration system, the F-150 Lightning can serve as a reliable home backup energy source by dispatching power to the home during a power outage event.

Through this partnership, customers will also be provided with the opportunity to install a solar and battery system on their home, enabling them to power their household with clean, affordable energy and charge their F-150 Lightning with the power of the sun.

Emphasis mine. PR is pretty clear that PV + home battery are optional, not mandatory. Sunrun's just the contractor here.

 

[Charlie101]

Thanks Bandit216. I understood that I would need an inverter. That’s why I called Sunrun to find out the total installed cost. The account representative insisted that I needed a photovoltaic system as well or sunrun was not interested. When I talk to Ford they simply did not have an answer for me. I guess I can hope that they get their act together later in the year. If not I may have to cancel my reservation.

 

[corradoborg]

Thanks Bandit216. I understood that I would need an inverter. That’s why I called Sunrun to find out the total installed cost. The account representative insisted that I needed a photovoltaic system as well or sunrun was not interested. When I talk to Ford they simply did not have an answer for me. I guess I can hope that they get their act together later in the year. If not I may have to cancel my reservation.

Yes, this sounds to me like Ford and Sunrun just haven't fully synced yet. They have an agreement, but with the F-150L still almost a year away they haven't worked everything out and pushed the finished policy out to their customer service reps. I wouldn't panic unless they're still saying this when we have to lock in our orders.

 

[Bandit216]

There are a lot of places you can buy inverters. Hopefully, Ford didn't buy into some kind of proprietary interface exclusive to Sunrun. I certainly wouldn't think so. In this case, the inverter is simply looking for either available AC voltage on one side and making it available to the 80 Amp Charge Station and if AC is not available it's looking for DC voltage on the other side and making it available to the house. Not much need for a proprietary interface in that process.

If Sunrun is just acting as an installer, it would be very bad business for Ford to allow their designated installer to take advantage of an uneducated public by deliberately misleading them in this manner. I suspect Corradoborg is right.

 

[EaglesPDX]

I just talked to Sunrun and Ford. Sun run says I have to install a photovoltaic system on my roof in order to use the battery in the F1 50 Lightning to serve my house.

Nope. Lot of people in TX ran their homes during the ice storm using the Ford charging setup in the F150 Hybrids which is the same as the one on the F150 Lightning.

To run the house all you need is manual transfer switch so you never mix utility with the truck feed and then a plug on "Emergency" side of the transfer switch to plug in the F150 which would now back feed the house.

You might want to label the breakers in your main panel you want to run from the truck. Essentials like a light circuit, heater/AC circuit and TV/Computer circuit. Turn off all the other breakers before flipping the transfer switch to run the house off the truck.

 

[Nick Gerteis]

Nope. Lot of people in TX ran their homes during the ice storm using the Ford charging setup in the F150 Hybrids which is the same as the one on the F150 Lightning.

To run the house all you need is manual transfer switch so you never mix utility with the truck feed and then a plug on "Emergency" side of the transfer switch to plug in the F150 which would now back feed the house.

You might want to label the breakers in your main panel you want to run from the truck. Essentials like a light circuit, heater/AC circuit and TV/Computer circuit. Turn off all the other breakers before flipping the transfer switch to run the house off the truck.

Exactly what I’m planning on doing. Either flip breakers off like you said, or at least be very judicious in using power hungry but not necessarily vital items like dryer, range, or water heater. The 7.2 kW outlet on the truck will run everything in your house.....but certainly not all at the same time.

 

[Kickaha]

The account representative insisted that I needed a photovoltaic system as well or sunrun was not interested.

From SunRun's perspective, this makes total sense. Do they want to install $4,000 worth of solar equipment or $40,000? If you ran a business, which would you want?

You need an inverter with automatic cutoff and crossover; not a whole system. Sounds like an overzealous salesman who wanted to upsell you using FUD. I bet they also pitched you on a 25-year "lease to own" scheme or some such for the PV system you "needed".

 

[shutterbug]

So what exactly is the advantage of using SunRun? It's not like they are doing it for free. Presumably, there are countless electricians that can perform the work, probably cheaper.

 

[sotek2345]

So what exactly is the advantage of using SunRun? It's not like they are doing it for free. Presumably, there are countless electricians that can perform the work, probably cheaper.

At a guess, the partnership means the dealer can set everything up for you and maybe even include the costs in the loan so it is a "turn key" solution.

 

[MattLikesBikes]

I am sure there is a fancy way to do it directly through the charge cable, but as noted above you also could just install a standard generator connection/isolator and use the 240 plug at the back of the truck. If you do that, you could also use a generator for backup power and not JUST your truck. Sometimes less slick is better.

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