Jeesh! How Many Charging Apps Will I need?

[shutterbug]

So, question from another angle…
I saw $0.39/kW on a Blink charger at my local Ford Dealer. If I log 2,500 miles per week, and get 2 miles per KW, that’s almost $500 per month to charge at remote chargers if $0.39 per kW is realistic. Now, charging at home at $0.10 per kW would be only $125 per month, but I’m not thinking I’ll be upgrading my home service to accept a level 2 charger (80A), so I’ll be petering around with the 240V charger at home. If I split the difference, and say charging costs are more like $300 per month, I’m not so sure the savings vs. the inconvenience is as attractive.

First of all, 240V is L2. You don't need to upgrade your service to add a 100A circuit. As long as as you can add 40—60A circuit, that will be plenty. A 48A charger (60A circuit) will take extended battery from 15% to 100% in 13 hours. Finally, the 2 miles per kWh is an imaginary number that folks are guessing at. My guess is that the real number is much better.

Incidentally 2,500 miles per week is nearly 11,000 miles per month or 130,000 miles per year. Are you really driving that much?

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[shutterbug]

Nice. I set my cruise at 78 but am lucky if it stays above 72 or so on I-4.

Wait, you meant mph? I assumed temperature. Pretty sure MME is limited by s/w to about 110 mph. And had I been driving over 100 mph, on a regular basis in the city, I would have lost my license by now.

When I get on freeways locally I generally top out at 75 mph. But could probably do 80-85 mph.

When I make my trip to CA next week, I plan to go 85 mph in 75 mph zone.

 

[Viper GTS]

First of all, 240V is L2. You don't need to upgrade your service to add a 100A circuit. As long as as you can add 40—60A circuit, that will be plenty. A 48A charger (60A circuit) will take extended battery from 15% to 100% in 13 hours. Finally, the 2 miles per kWh is an imaginary number that folks are guessing at. My guess is that the real number is much better.

Incidentally 2,500 miles per week is nearly 11,000 miles per month or 130,000 miles per year. Are you really driving that much?

Sadly 2 mi/kwh from the wall is likely really optimistic. The numbers reported in car/app by EV makers are just power that goes to locomotion - It ignores charging efficiencies, HVAC, entertainment, etc. Over nearly 30k miles in my Model 3 Performance I'm doing about 400wh/mi from my wall and that's ignoring about 1500 'miles' of supercharger use. So I'm somewhere near that 2mi/kwh number in what is undoubtedly (at least in comparison to an F150) an extremely efficient vehicle. My ChargePoint data: 11,561 kwh for 29157 miles = 397wh/mi.

As another data point:

Rivian R1T, R1S Range and Economy Figures Revealed by EPA (motortrend.com)

The burning question, of course, is how the Rivian's range figures will compare to its rivals. The ones that come to mind are Tesla's large Model X SUV, and the upcoming Ford F-150 Lightning. The less trucklike 2021 Model X Long Range has a significant advantage in EPA testing, making the most of its 100 kWh battery pack to provide a total of 371 miles of range. Its Performance variant with the large 22-inch wheels, however, falls just short of the Rivian twins at 300 miles of rated range. Both are more efficient overall, with the Long Range achieving 32 kWh per 100 miles, and the Performance 39 kWh/100 miles. The Rivian R1T manages 48 kWh/100 miles, and the R1S 49 kWh/100 miles.

The real economies of EV ownership come from extremely low cost at home charging. Here in NJ I pay somewhere around $0.09 off peak for all my charging. For someone doing massive road miles and not plugging into cheap power at home the cost/benefit is likely terrible.

 

[shutterbug]

Sadly 2 mi/kwh from the wall is likely really optimistic. The numbers reported in car/app by EV makers are just power that goes to locomotion - It ignores charging efficiencies, HVAC, entertainment, etc. Over nearly 30k miles in my Model 3 Performance I'm doing about 400wh/mi from my wall and that's ignoring about 1500 'miles' of supercharger use. So I'm somewhere near that 2mi/kwh number in what is undoubtedly (at least in comparison to an F150) an extremely efficient vehicle. My ChargePoint data: 11,561 kwh for 29157 miles = 397wh/mi.

If you compare cost to fuel a 4X4 F150 cost:

MPG	19
Miles	1,000
Gallons	52.63
Price	$ 4.00
Cost	$ 210.53

To a potential F150L charged on the road:

M/kWh	2		M/kWh	2.5		M/kWh	3
Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000
kWh	500.00		kWh	400.00		kWh	333.33
Price (EA)	0.31		Price (EA)	0.31		Price (EA)	0.31
Cost (EA)	155.00		Cost (EA)	124.00		Cost (EA)	103.33

or at home using US average of 0.13:

M/kWh	2		M/kWh	2.5		M/kWh	3
Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000
kWh	500.00		kWh	400.00		kWh	333.33
Price	0.13		Price	0.13		Price	0.13
Cost	65.00		Cost	52.00		Cost	43.33

However you slice it cost of charging an EV is a bargain compared to gas powered vehicles.

My average so far in MME (not the most efficient EV) has been about 3.9 miles per kWh, including A/C, accessories, and weather. I assume F150L will be significantly less efficiently, but still better than the most pessimistic guesses.

My personal cost of charging is mostly zero, thanks to my employer providing free charging. Since August I've charged less than 60 kWh at home at a cost of 0.056 per kWh.

 

[sotek2345]

If you compare cost to fuel a 4X4 F150 cost:

MPG	19
Miles	1,000
Gallons	52.63
Price	$ 4.00
Cost	$ 210.53

To a potential F150L charged on the road:

M/kWh	2		M/kWh	2.5		M/kWh	3
Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000
kWh	500.00		kWh	400.00		kWh	333.33
Price (EA)	0.31		Price (EA)	0.31		Price (EA)	0.31
Cost (EA)	155.00		Cost (EA)	124.00		Cost (EA)	103.33

or at home using US average of 0.13:

M/kWh	2		M/kWh	2.5		M/kWh	3
Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000
kWh	500.00		kWh	400.00		kWh	333.33
Price	0.13		Price	0.13		Price	0.13
Cost	65.00		Cost	52.00		Cost	43.33

However you slice it cost of charging an EV is a bargain compared to gas powered vehicles.

My average so far in MME (not the most efficient EV) has been about 3.9 miles per kWh, including A/C, accessories, and weather. I assume F150L will be significantly less efficiently, but still better than the most pessimistic guesses.

My personal cost of charging is mostly zero, thanks to my employer providing free charging. Since August I've charged less than 60 kWh at home at a cost of 0.056 per kWh.

To add to this, I am currently averaging 14.9mpg in my F150 (2016 Screw 4x4, 2.7L), so the savings will be even greater.

 

[Smokewagun]

Oops! 2,500 miles per MONTH, although my figures are correct. If I can get along with the 240V charger, for which I have the power now, I can charge my longer days of mileage in 8 hours. That’s dandy. At 2 conservative miles per kW, I’m paying $125 a MONTH to charge at home. That’s a far cry from my $400 to $600 fuel bill… depending on where I’m driving.

 

[Viper GTS]

If you compare cost to fuel a 4X4 F150 cost:

MPG	19
Miles	1,000
Gallons	52.63
Price	$ 4.00
Cost	$ 210.53

To a potential F150L charged on the road:

M/kWh	2		M/kWh	2.5		M/kWh	3
Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000
kWh	500.00		kWh	400.00		kWh	333.33
Price (EA)	0.31		Price (EA)	0.31		Price (EA)	0.31
Cost (EA)	155.00		Cost (EA)	124.00		Cost (EA)	103.33

or at home using US average of 0.13:

M/kWh	2		M/kWh	2.5		M/kWh	3
Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000
kWh	500.00		kWh	400.00		kWh	333.33
Price	0.13		Price	0.13		Price	0.13
Cost	65.00		Cost	52.00		Cost	43.33

However you slice it cost of charging an EV is a bargain compared to gas powered vehicles.

My average so far in MME (not the most efficient EV) has been about 3.9 miles per kWh, including A/C, accessories, and weather. I assume F150L will be significantly less efficiently, but still better than the most pessimistic guesses.

My personal cost of charging is mostly zero, thanks to my employer providing free charging. Since August I've charged less than 60 kWh at home at a cost of 0.056 per kWh.

If you compare cost to fuel a 4X4 F150 cost:

MPG	19
Miles	1,000
Gallons	52.63
Price	$ 4.00
Cost	$ 210.53

To a potential F150L charged on the road:

M/kWh	2		M/kWh	2.5		M/kWh	3
Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000
kWh	500.00		kWh	400.00		kWh	333.33
Price (EA)	0.31		Price (EA)	0.31		Price (EA)	0.31
Cost (EA)	155.00		Cost (EA)	124.00		Cost (EA)	103.33

or at home using US average of 0.13:

M/kWh	2		M/kWh	2.5		M/kWh	3
Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000		Miles	1,000
kWh	500.00		kWh	400.00		kWh	333.33
Price	0.13		Price	0.13		Price	0.13
Cost	65.00		Cost	52.00		Cost	43.33

However you slice it cost of charging an EV is a bargain compared to gas powered vehicles.

My average so far in MME (not the most efficient EV) has been about 3.9 miles per kWh, including A/C, accessories, and weather. I assume F150L will be significantly less efficiently, but still better than the most pessimistic guesses.

My personal cost of charging is mostly zero, thanks to my employer providing free charging. Since August I've charged less than 60 kWh at home at a cost of 0.056 per kWh.

With regard to your MME data, is that data reported by the car or by your charger? My Tesla claims I'm getting around 4mi/kwh too, but my ChargePoint data says otherwise. It's still far cheaper than fueling an equivalent gas car, of course, and the driving dynamics/power delivery are obviously vastly superior. I get why they report the way they do, but it's nowhere near a complete picture of the energy usage.

For your F150 spreadsheet, how many hours would someone needing 500 kwh from a public charger need to sit at the charger? That's a very real part of the cost/benefit equation.

I love my 3P and plan to never buy another gas daily driver but - If my living situation changed such that I couldn't charge at home I would seriously consider going back. Someone who spends their whole life on the road is IMO not a good candidate for an EV today. Devoting 30s a day in my driveway at home to fueling is great; spending hours in public chargers is not. I had about six weeks of that nonsense while waiting for my electrician, permits, etc for my L2 charger and with a supercharger a mile from my house it was still miserable. And I was only doing 60-100 miles a day though admittedly it was winter which didn't help.

EDIT:

2500 miles a month is completely doable on L2 and you'll have a great experience. If you were actually doing 2500 a week I'd strongly suggest you find a new job first, and secondarily buy a gas truck.

 

[jefro]

has been about 3.9 miles per kWh

That is actually pretty good I'd think.

I don't see the F150 getting much better than 2 mi/Kwh average.

I think this site is pretty accurate. They will have the F150 on it at some point. It is useful right now though.
https://evcompare.io/charging-calculator/

 

[shutterbug]

With regard to your MME data, is that data reported by the car or by your charger? My Tesla claims I'm getting around 4mi/kwh too, but my ChargePoint data says otherwise. It's still far cheaper than fueling an equivalent gas car, of course, and the driving dynamics/power delivery are obviously vastly superior. I get why they report the way they do, but it's nowhere near a complete picture of the energy usage.

When using ChargePoint (at home or at work), kWh reported by the car app are about 10% lower than those reported by the charger. That's for longer sessions. Very short sessions are less efficient.

For your F150 spreadsheet, how many hours would someone needing 500 kwh from a public charger need to sit at the charger? That's a very real part of the cost/benefit equation.

Right now zero hours for me. Have only charged at home/work/retail sites. Next week I'll be traveling about 400 miles to CA. In the past that trip took me about 7 hours total with stops for gas/food/leg stretching. Will have to see what it actually takes with charging stops.

Someone who spends their whole life on the road is IMO not a good candidate for an EV today

No argument here. DCFC is fine if you need to use it occasionally, but would become a total drag if you had to visit 3-4 times every day. When F150L arrives, I have no plans to take it on road trips, which is why I'm going for smaller battery.

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