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Updated Ford Intelligent Backup Power page (no longer) details 320-Amp Home Service o_O
adoublee
Well-known member
Ford has offloaded this product to Sunrun almost completely. Sunrun will ship the product, and if you want to buy the Charge Station Pro as an option, you buy it from Sunrun. The Home Integration System (HIS) will also be sold directly by Sunrun, even if they are not the ones installing (they are in something like 22 states). This is all described in the "playbook".
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Maquis
Well-known member
Correct, but my response was to Micky’s question about SunRun being exclusively required by Ford. They are not - you can choose your own installer.
“Permits and local utility coordination must be handled by SunRun or a licensed electrician”
adoublee
Well-known member
You said Sunrun is an installer, not a product. That would make sense, but in this case Sunrun is essentially the distributor and presumably the designer of the product with a Ford badge on the face. I think we agree others can install, but the product will come from Sunrun in all cases. Even those who purchase an ER vehicle will have Sunrun contact them to determine if they want Sunrun to install product or just ship it to owner.
Maquis
Well-known member
I wasn’t aware that Sunrun had any hardware involvement other than reseller/installer. I admit, I really don’t know for sure.
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rdr854
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What if I just want to have the vehicle charging capability From the 80 amp charge station pro? Do I still need 320/400 amp service? I do not need to power the house.Based on recent updates to the Intelligent Backup page:
https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/f150-lightning/2022/features/intelligent-backup-power/
About 1/3 of the way down the page a graphic states 320 Amp service is required! This seems like an odd number.
I totally get the 100 amp dedicated circuit for the 80-amp Charge Station Pro. That makes perfect sense. Your home has to have sufficient service to cover existing loads plus the new 80 amp charger. That also makes sense.
I wonder if many folks actually have 320 amp service already? (Not us, we've only got 150 amp service and suspected we might likely be looking at an upgrade anyway if we wanted to take full advantage of the 80 amp charger and run the rest of our house.)
Maybe I've missed it, but there aren't 320 amp mains panels that I've ever seen looking at the standard residential stuff on the DIY box store sites? Seems like a pretty odd requirement. Our provider (AEP) website has a request form to upgrade from 100/200/400 to 100/200/400 amp service. Assuming the 80% rule applies, looks like we might have to submit a request for some heavier 400 amp cable runs along with the upgraded meter base (and meter) to cover the 320 amp service requirement. I can't imagine that will be free.
The 320 amp service might either be fed by a 400 amp (non-continuous) meter base at 80%, or a 320 amp meter base with maybe two 150 amp panels somehow, though that doesn't seem quite right either. Maybe they're adding a 100 amp dedicated charger circuit along with the typical modern home's existing 150-200 amp service? Considering they ultimately plan to feed house loads with an inverter and transfer switch, not sure how that would all work with the 320 amp service, that's a hefty transfer switch. Maybe they're expecting to re-wire things a bit to feed a separate backed-up loads panel?
Any electricians out there that might have some insight? Hopefully we'll continue to see more and more information released on the IBP and "Home Integration Solution" as we get closer to deliveries. Unless I'm mistaken, Sunrun doesn't seem to produce products of their own, so they almost have to be using someone else's gear. Should also be fun since they're not in my state.
All of this will be interesting to see if (or how) nicely it will "play" with my home's existing solar back-end of a SolarEdge Backup Interface (whole home backup device with integrated transfer switch and optional standalone generator input) coupled with panels, Energy Hub Inverters and a LG RESU10H backup battery.
Guess I'll have to keep doing research on the Ford/Sunrun Home Integration platform. Are you in the same or a similar boat? Let's keep track of what we learn here!
adoublee
Well-known member
No - I am very very confident you will not need a 320 rated service panel for this. You will need a 100/2 breaker position and keep total load from causing your main breaker to trip from an additional 80 continuous amps, but that is a somewhat different matter.
DadBald
Well-known member
Here's where the 320 Amps is coming from. From my utility's documentation:
Looks like a 400A meter is only rated for 400A intermittently, but 320A continuously. Utilities do some weird cost-saving things regularly, like undersizing utility-owned transformers for new installations, etc. It's a black box for design and I guess they figure replacing a few blown pieces of equipment a year is better than properly sizing everything. ?
EDIT: Actually, this is not dissimilar to the typical circuit loading design standards of 80%... for example the 80A EVSE from Ford requires a 100A circuit. 80% of 400A is 320A.
Looks like a 400A meter is only rated for 400A intermittently, but 320A continuously. Utilities do some weird cost-saving things regularly, like undersizing utility-owned transformers for new installations, etc. It's a black box for design and I guess they figure replacing a few blown pieces of equipment a year is better than properly sizing everything. ?
EDIT: Actually, this is not dissimilar to the typical circuit loading design standards of 80%... for example the 80A EVSE from Ford requires a 100A circuit. 80% of 400A is 320A.
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DadBald
Well-known member
I'm upgrading my service for installation of a solar PV system, and to have future capacity for one or two EV chargers. I have 150A currently and was looking at 400A, but it was just cost prohibitive. A 400A main breaker panel was anywhwere from $2500 - 5,000 JUST FOR MATERIALS. My electrician price was north of $2k on top of that, and I would still need to provide branch circuit breakers which were $50 a piece (15-20A) for the panels I could find. Just crazy.
So I'm going with a 225A service and panel. If I derate the main breaker to 200A, then I will have up to 70A backfeed capability. I'm betting on that being enough for the lightning per my previous comments. I'm also going with the Leviton smart panel system so I can keep an eye on consumption. Two EV chargers and A/C will be pushing the 200A limit, but with the smart metering system I can see where I'm at and adjust accordingly, if necessary. All-in I'm around $3500, much more reasonable.
So I'm going with a 225A service and panel. If I derate the main breaker to 200A, then I will have up to 70A backfeed capability. I'm betting on that being enough for the lightning per my previous comments. I'm also going with the Leviton smart panel system so I can keep an eye on consumption. Two EV chargers and A/C will be pushing the 200A limit, but with the smart metering system I can see where I'm at and adjust accordingly, if necessary. All-in I'm around $3500, much more reasonable.
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adoublee
Well-known member
What was cost of a 400A panel with a 200A main breaker? This would allow for 100A Lightning breaker that can backfeed, and another up to 100A breaker for interactive solar. Also, the Lightning breaker and interactive solar breakers could be placed anywhere in the panel and not just at opposite side of main breaker.
DadBald
Well-known member
Good question. The main breaker is the biggest cost, from what I could find. On one panel, substitute main breakers were all the same price, around the $1500 range, regardless of amperage (400, 350, 200, and 250). Not quite sure why. You may be on to something with this suggestion, but I'm tired of researching.
My understanding is backfeed breakers need to be on the other end of the panel regardless of size of the breaker or panel bus. It's possible you know something I don't though.
adoublee
Well-known member
Breakers being at opposite end is not required if the amp rating of the metal bussing of the panel is equal or greater than the sum amp ratings of all POTENTIAL power SOURCES. This is because there is no physical chance of the bus experiencing more amps that it is rated for. The 120% rule is a compromise that is based in assuming the main breaker is going to match the metal bus amp rating in most installations, and that having loads connected in between the sources will pull some of the current off of the bussing.
What I am not sure of is if all breakers in a 400A bussing panel have to be different than breakers in a 200A or 225A bussing panel. That is a big cost differentiator, versus just moving your existing breakers (new for Lightning and larger solar) to the panel.
Also, a service panel replacement can trigger need for electrician to pull permit versus homeowner. The inspector may require the panel to be brought up to current NEC code, which can introduce need for a bunch of GFI and AFCI breakers which are more expensive.
I'm not digging to far until I know what the Sunrun "Microgrid Interconnect Device" (NEC term for device that will automatically isolate from and reconnect home to utility grid) will look like. It may have provisions for the interactive solar connection, and take care of your issues if cut in between your meter and main panel.
DadBald
Well-known member
My electrician even suggested this, but my panel is in a finished basement on a weird framed bump-out on an exterior wall... it would require quite a bit of work to stuff another panel in that area. I also wasn't quite sure how it would work with a solar system or battery system. For me anyway it was too much work and cost.
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