V4 with MAGIC DOCK... brand new installation near ORLANDO

[carys98]

I was under the impression that with V4, we would be able to achieve our top charging speeds (325 kWh?). Whereas with V3 most Of us are getting 150-220 kWh. But, I could be mistaken since I get most things piece meal through these forums. (Haven’t found a book on all this EV charging).

Ford specs the max for Lightning at 150 kW but they will actually peak at about 180 for ten minutes or so under ideal conditions. If you get lucky enough to find a perfectly working Electrify America site with your battery at a good temperature you’ll get into the 170s. It should also be possible on Superchargers but my experience so far is that the peak on a Supercharger is a little lower and it also settles into a lower rate. I’ve only used them on warm days so it may have been limited because my battery was a bit hot. The only vehicles that can do more than 200 kW are 800V architectures and the Lightning is 400V.

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[chl]

Apparently, the Tesla Superchargers work better with Tesla's than other makes.
Independent testing says so anyway.
And, if they are working, EA chargers seem to add more miles per hour to the Lightning than the Tesla chargers, according to this study anyway:
-----

...While our initial testing was only on the Tesla Supercharger, we have now extended the test to find the capabilities of one of its competitors, Electrify America, with results that will surprise.

To date, Tesla's system and vehicles have been in a closed system and optimized for Tesla vehicles. Now that other brands have access, how will they perform in comparison with the chargers for which they were originally designed?

After testing several popular and diverse EVs across both the Tesla Supercharger and Electrify America networks—using AMCI Testing's in-depth MP6 protocol—company representatives are skeptical.

"As we saw in our last release of MP6 data, even with its slower-charging, base-battery chemistry, the 2024 Tesla Model 3 'Highland' adds more miles in six minutes than any other vehicle we have tested on the Tesla network," said Guy Mangiamele, Director of AMCI Testing.

"One might expect that means high-speed fast charging for any vehicle plugged into the Tesla network, but that is clearly untrue. Unlike fueling at a gas station, there are many variables at play including hardware and software, over which the consumer has no control. Among the diverse group of vehicles we have tested, the data clearly shows that non-Tesla vehicles will not charge to their full design potential at a Tesla Supercharger."

Below are the initial results of our first MP6® tests comparing Tesla Supercharger to Electrify America for some selected models:

AMCI TESTING MP6® LEADERBOARD RESULTS
	Tesla Supercharger	Electrify America
Mercedes-Benz EQE	31.5 MP6	41.0 MP6
Hyundai IONIQ 5	28.0 MP6	75.0 MP6
Ford F-150 Lightning	22.0 MP6	27.0 MP6
Kia EV6 RWD	23.0 MP6	49.0 MP6

Looking at the comparative results, the CEO of AMCI Global, David Stokols, commented, "Tesla's charging world, and that of all others, have operated in separate universes. This has caused certain brands and architectures, from OEMs to charging providers, to be unfairly judged. Now with Musk reevaluating his posture on shared NACS charging, those worlds are colliding. This will lead to new winners, dashed hopes, and an opportunity for the OEMs and charging companies to create new narratives. As the battle ensues between brands and charging systems the consumer MUST be the winner or BEVs will not become the answer for our environmental future."

---
https://www.streetinsider.com/PRNew...ng+experience+they+may+hope+for/23350266.html

For what it is worth...

PS: https://amcitesting.com/mp6-charging-standard/

PPS: They tested the Lightning in Dec 2023 - not great results, but...
https://amcitesting.com/amci-testing-press-release-12-19-final/

 

[Zprime29]

I was under the impression that with V4, we would be able to achieve our top charging speeds (325 kWh?). Whereas with V3 most Of us are getting 150-220 kWh. But, I could be mistaken since I get most things piece meal through these forums. (Haven’t found a book on all this EV charging).

Every EV is limited by the voltage of the battery. Take the voltage and multiply by the amps provided from the DCFC and you get the total power going into the battery. The 350kW stations have a 500A max I believe.

 

[Zprime29]

Apparently, the Tesla Superchargers work better with Tesla's than other makes.
Independent testing says so anyway.
And, if they are working, EA chargers seem to add more miles per hour to the Lightning than the Tesla chargers, according to this study anyway:
-----

...While our initial testing was only on the Tesla Supercharger, we have now extended the test to find the capabilities of one of its competitors, Electrify America, with results that will surprise.

To date, Tesla's system and vehicles have been in a closed system and optimized for Tesla vehicles. Now that other brands have access, how will they perform in comparison with the chargers for which they were originally designed?

After testing several popular and diverse EVs across both the Tesla Supercharger and Electrify America networks—using AMCI Testing's in-depth MP6 protocol—company representatives are skeptical.

"As we saw in our last release of MP6 data, even with its slower-charging, base-battery chemistry, the 2024 Tesla Model 3 'Highland' adds more miles in six minutes than any other vehicle we have tested on the Tesla network," said Guy Mangiamele, Director of AMCI Testing.

"One might expect that means high-speed fast charging for any vehicle plugged into the Tesla network, but that is clearly untrue. Unlike fueling at a gas station, there are many variables at play including hardware and software, over which the consumer has no control. Among the diverse group of vehicles we have tested, the data clearly shows that non-Tesla vehicles will not charge to their full design potential at a Tesla Supercharger."

Below are the initial results of our first MP6® tests comparing Tesla Supercharger to Electrify America for some selected models:

AMCI TESTING MP6® LEADERBOARD RESULTS
	Tesla Supercharger	Electrify America
Mercedes-Benz EQE	31.5 MP6	41.0 MP6
Hyundai IONIQ 5	28.0 MP6	75.0 MP6
Ford F-150 Lightning	22.0 MP6	27.0 MP6
Kia EV6 RWD	23.0 MP6	49.0 MP6

Looking at the comparative results, the CEO of AMCI Global, David Stokols, commented, "Tesla's charging world, and that of all others, have operated in separate universes. This has caused certain brands and architectures, from OEMs to charging providers, to be unfairly judged. Now with Musk reevaluating his posture on shared NACS charging, those worlds are colliding. This will lead to new winners, dashed hopes, and an opportunity for the OEMs and charging companies to create new narratives. As the battle ensues between brands and charging systems the consumer MUST be the winner or BEVs will not become the answer for our environmental future."

---
https://www.streetinsider.com/PRNewswire/AMCI+Testing+MP6®+data+shows+Tesla+Supercharger+does+not+give+other+brands+the+charging+experience+they+may+hope+for/23350266.html

For what it is worth...

PS: https://amcitesting.com/mp6-charging-standard/

PPS: They tested the Lightning in Dec 2023 - not great results, but...
https://amcitesting.com/amci-testing-press-release-12-19-final/

I'm skeptical about this, since we have plenty of first hand experience here showing our lightnings very much achieve their full potential on SC's.

 

[carys98]

I'm skeptical about this, since we have plenty of first hand experience here showing our lightnings very much achieve their full potential on SC's.

I suspect that is true. Since SCs don’t appear in the nav yet there’s no way to precondition so that could be the problem I experienced. Of course by some reports precondition is completely broken. At my last SC stop I peaked about 160 kW and it quickly dropped to 102 kW but my battery temp was about 100F. I expected 170/120 which is what I’ve seen multiple times at EA. Hopefully one day we will get a manual precondition button or it will integrate with CarPlay.

 

[chl]

I'm skeptical about this, since we have plenty of first hand experience here showing our lightnings very much achieve their full potential on SC's.

I have no reason to question the AMCI data.

Anecdotal 'first hand experience' of forum members may not be as reliable, and is certainly not as extensive, as an independent automotive research firm (AMCI) with over 35 years of experience.

There are a lot of smart, knowledgeable, people on this and other forums, I am not knocking them, but we individual Lightning owners probably don't have the kind of time and money to do a comprehensive evaluation of the Supercharger Network vs EA, as AMCI did.

According to their mission statement, MCI is "committed to unbiased, comparative evaluations of automotive products. AMCI Testing evaluates, tests and critiques more than 150 cars and trucks each year at our test facilities in Southern California and private proving grounds worldwide. "

So it is not like they are biased for EA and against Tesla.

Their rating is miles (of range) per 6 minutes (MP6) charge time.

As they say, there are many factors that affect that, but controlling for those vehicle specifics, they found a difference of 5 miles between the SC and EA's per 6 minutes of charge time.

How many of us are going to notice the small 5 mile difference between a Tesla SC and an EA DC charger? And if we did, we might tend to attribute it to our battery temperature at the time of charging, or other extraneous factors.

But, assuming the data from ACMI is accurate, I am curious WHY there is a difference at all, which AMCI found to be "surprising."

Most Electrify America DC fast chargers can deliver up to 350kW of power, Tesla's 250kW (last time I checked the V3 and V4 rating) but the Lightning will only accept up to 120kW (SR) or 155kW (ER).

So there is a physical limit (120kW/155kW) and both DC chargers (EA and Tesla) can deliver the max the Lightning can accept.

So what is the difference between them and why?

Is Tesla somehow throttling the delivered energy when charging a Lightning?

Why else would the EA DC charger have a 5 mile per 6 minute advantage?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Zprime29]

I disagree with their test strategy. The first 6 minutes is not long enough to accurately access the charging performance of an EV. No one charges for just 6 minutes and EV's have drastically different charging curves at different SOC. All they say is that they tested EV's when they were able to charge above their stated max rate. Well that's an unfair assessment for a car that might have a high peak but only keeps it for a few minutes. It's also misleading as it implies to an uneducated reader that an EV will always get that charge speed. What they don't know is that certain EV's will ONLY get that speed when at very low SOC. They will be sorely disappointed when they plug in at 50% and don't get that MP6 rated speed.

I think it would be more accurate for them to test the entire charge curve and then compare that. Awarding points for peak and average speed between 20-80 (most common charge ups will be in that range so it's more reflective of real world expectations).

Their website ranks the BZ4X as the fastest charging EV. Ummm....ok, would you recommend people get that, cuz it's a great road tripping EV?

I'm also irked that they don't provide any information about how they determine the mileage. Are they just using EPA efficiency numbers? We all know Tesla's numbers are pretty inflated. I'm not trying to imply or claim that their research is useless, but there is a LOT of context missing that the average consumer won't know. For instance, it is stupid to compare 800V EV's between SC and EA stations. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

EDIT to add the claim of, "Among the diverse group of vehicles we have tested, the data clearly shows that non-Tesla vehicles will not charge to their full design potential at a Tesla Supercharger. " is factually incorrect. We have empirical evidence that directly contradicts the state. Since they provide no evidence, I will not accept their claim at face value.

 

[carys98]

I disagree with their test strategy. The first 6 minutes is not long enough to accurately access the charging performance of an EV. No one charges for just 6 minutes and EV's have drastically different charging curves at different SOC. All they say is that they tested EV's when they were able to charge above their stated max rate. Well that's an unfair assessment for a car that might have a high peak but only keeps it for a few minutes. It's also misleading as it implies to an uneducated reader that an EV will always get that charge speed. What they don't know is that certain EV's will ONLY get that speed when at very low SOC. They will be sorely disappointed when they plug in at 50% and don't get that MP6 rated speed.

I think it would be more accurate for them to test the entire charge curve and then compare that. Awarding points for peak and average speed between 20-80 (most common charge ups will be in that range so it's more reflective of real world expectations).

Their website ranks the BZ4X as the fastest charging EV. Ummm....ok, would you recommend people get that, cuz it's a great road tripping EV?

I'm also irked that they don't provide any information about how they determine the mileage. Are they just using EPA efficiency numbers? We all know Tesla's numbers are pretty inflated. I'm not trying to imply or claim that their research is useless, but there is a LOT of context missing that the average consumer won't know. For instance, it is stupid to compare 800V EV's between SC and EA stations. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

EDIT to add the claim of, "Among the diverse group of vehicles we have tested, the data clearly shows that non-Tesla vehicles will not charge to their full design potential at a Tesla Supercharger. " is factually incorrect. We have empirical evidence that directly contradicts the state. Since they provide no evidence, I will not accept their claim at face value.

You are more patient than I am. As soon as I read they were measuring how many miles were added to the battery I quit. That’s a red flag that either they don’t know what they are doing or they are intentionally trying to mislead for attention.

 

[Zprime29]

You are more patient than I am. As soon as I read they were measuring how many miles were added to the battery I quit. That’s a red flag that either they don’t know what they are doing or they are intentionally trying to mislead for attention.

I had the exact same immediate reaction, but I firmly inserted my foot into my mouth a while back when I blasted a test report as foolish. So I'm trying my hardest to not repeat that.

 

[Tedmister2]

I just used a magic dock in Hermiston Oregon twice this weekend. It just meant I didn’t have to pull out my adapter but seemed to work seamlessly.
I would be curious if there’s any change in throughput speed using the supplied adapter or my A2Z adapter.

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