Battery swapping

[climateguy]

NIO is pioneering EVs that are designed to be upgradeable as battery technology improves.

The selling point now seems to be that this is the answer for those who want recharging their EV to be as convenient as filling an ICE vehicle with gas.

NIO getting a battery swap

That is, if you can find one of the automated facilities.... Its hard to imagine swapping stations all over the US built for one brand of vehicle, never mind for all EVs.

What appeals to me is that the design allows for convenient and cheaper battery upgrades as technology improves. NIO has improved their battery pack from 70 kWh to 150kWh in a few years, and because they are pioneering the battery swapping station idea, the new batteries fit the older cars.

The coming dramatic improvement in battery capability and price means that the resale price for todays EVs will tank.

Today’s Lightning ER comes with a 132 kWh battery with an 8 year warranty that charges slowly and performs poorly in cold weather. And the battery costs a fortune. Vehicles stuck with batteries like this won’t have a tremendous resale value in just a few years compared to vehicles built with cheaper batteries that are two or three times as capable.

Ford could commit to making the batteries for its future EVs fit its older vehicles

The Lightning would be more attractive. Getting into an expensive vehicle certain to be quickly obsolete would feel somewhat better, if a buyer could feel the vehicle wasn't almost disposable compared to the way ICE F-150s could last if you wanted them to.

Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected

Whether the EV industry evolves into battery swapping or stays with fast chargers, I hope this idea of a standard upgradable battery format that fit a manufacturer’s existing EV fleet catches on.

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[Maquis]

Elon promised to demo a battery swap within the next year at one of his “Battery Day” events. I think it was 2013. Never happened.

I think there are a couple reasons that this won’t take off.
1. Typically, the original batteries are going to outlast the car.
2. I don’t want to swap my battery and chance getting one that’s degraded more than my existing one. I’d rather just charge.

 

[RickLightning]

Ford could commit to making the batteries for its future EVs fit its older vehicles

The Lightning would be more attractive. Getting into an expensive vehicle certain to be quickly obsolete would feel somewhat better, if a buyer could feel the vehicle wasn't almost disposable compared to the way ICE F-150s could last if you wanted them to.

Electric car battery prices are going back down faster than expected

Whether the EV industry evolves into battery swapping or stays with fast chargers, I hope this idea of a standard upgradable battery format that fit a manufacturer’s existing EV fleet catches on.

You're dreaming.

 

[Heliian]

compared to vehicles built with cheaper batteries that are two or three times as capable.

What's the life cycle of a vehicle. In terms of years?

I think you're overestimating the tech. 2-3x more capable? Not for a long time.

That is the great thing about the design of the lightning battery box, easily replaced.

Finally, home charging is where its at. Period. The logistics of battery swap stations is way more complex than dcfc infrastructure.

 

[hturnerfamily]

one of the logistical challenges here is, well, the obvious: just like finding today's DC Fast Chargers, you would have to be in not only the right 'place' where a battery=swap facility is located, but also be in the right 'place', battery SOC wise, to make it 'make sense', versus DC Fast Charging...

for instance, for a long road-trip where this would seem to have merit: if you find yourself 200 miles from home, and a facility can take you in immediately for a battery=swap, and your car's regular range still available is 100 miles, you are then swapping a 'new' 300 mile battery for your existing battery that still has 100 mile left. Are you going to get a 'discount' or 'swap=refund' for those 100 miles?

Next, you would have to have one of these facilities in your travel path, and, obviously, the process and procedures would have to take LESS TIME than simply charging yourself. The COST would also have to be somewhat in LINE with charging. I would find it hard to believe that while charging yourself might cost $20 that you could find a battery=swap option ANYWHERE NEAR that simple price range. Even an 'automated' system would probably be cost-prohibitive.

No, it's an idea, but it doesn't seem to make 'cents' for the common EV owners. Maybe there is a use case where this would be more common, such as future long-range SEMI-TRUCKs, where charging those beasts would certainly be time=consuming.

Maybe the answer is really much simpler: CAR=SWAPPING.

 

[Zprime29]

Elon promised to demo a battery swap within the next year at one of his “Battery Day” events. I think it was 2013. Never happened.

I think there are a couple reasons that this won’t take off.
1. Typically, the original batteries are going to outlast the car.
2. I don’t want to swap my battery and chance getting one that’s degraded more than my existing one. I’d rather just charge.

The demo did happen, I remember watching it.
https://www.tesla.com/videos/battery-swap-event

Elon claimed afterwards that there wasn't enough interest in it so he dropped it. It might be a viable solution for people who rent the batteries (kinda like what Vinfast does) and just use them as city commuters and don't have a means to charge at home. They could then drive like normal, wait until 10-15% then stop by the local battery swap station on the way home and get a fresh battery. The economical side of it is still a serious problem though.

 

[WhiteBolt]

There will be plenty of opportunities for aftermarket battery solutions in the near future. Modders will be just as involved in EVs as they are with ICE now.

 

[chl]

It's an obvious thing to do - every kids toy car or hobbyist RC plane has batteries that can be removed and replaced in a flash with new or fully charged rechargeables. A NIO has mostly been implementing it in China, but it is not the only company implementing the idea.

There is a company in the US, AMPLE, that was/is doing it too, initially for fleet vehicle companies on site which makes economic sense.

Fast charging wears out batteries faster than slow charging, so taking out a used battery (down to 20%) and recharging it slowly overnight will extend the useful life of that battery and the vehicle is goes with. Removing and replacing can be down in minutes, under 15 according to their promo materials.

There are up-front costs of course, for extra batteries and the swapping robotics, a place to store and recharge the used ones, etc.

https://ample.com/

Any vehicle can be modified to be 'modular' so that it will work with their swapping system. At some point in 2023, electrek reported that "Stellantis is getting into the battery swap game, announcing a partnership with US-based swap specialist Ample. Using Ample’s existing technology, Stellantis intends to deliver EVs with battery packs that can be swapped in five minutes, beginning with its 500e." Not sure what happened to that.

Now, think about this business model:

The company that does the swapping owns the batteries and leases them to the vehicle owner for a monthly payment that is based on how many swaps done each month.

That means your 2022 or 2023 Lightning could have a useful life that lasts as long as the battery leasing company is in business.

Being modular also means when new battery tech comes along, and there is plenty in the pipeline besides what Ford was planning, your vehicle can use it.

The cost of an EV would be uber affordable if sold with the "batteries not included" label. The manufacturer of the vehicle can partner with the battery leasing company (or have their own battery leasing operation).

The battery lease spreads the cost of the battery over time making EV's more affordable.

As for Ford or any EV maker promising that they will make new battery tech compatible with older vehicle - don't I wish it were true!

When I bought my 2012 Leaf in Dec 2011, Nissan had given lip-service to that idea, but they didn't follow through very far.

However, if NIO or Ample or another company modified the Leaf to be modular and battery swappable, that would not be an insurmountable problem.

EV makers already rely on other companies for their battery technology. And guess what? Those companies (CATL) are/were also considering making the batteries swappable.

Forbes says it is still an idea with teeth: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lbsbus...-swapping-services-and-why-their-time-is-now/

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"... Apart from convenience, battery-swapping also lowers customers’ initial cost of adopting an EV by allowing them to purchase only the vehicle body and lease the battery pack. Compared to buying an EV with battery pack, this option could reduce customers’ initial adoption cost by thousands of dollars.

Battery-swapping services also present several environmental advantages. Batteries in a swapping system can be charged at a slower pace, which can extend the lifespan of EV batteries and consequently reduce electronic waste. By charging batteries during off-peak hours, battery-swapping stations can reduce energy demand during peak periods or even function as ‘virtual power plants', sending energy back to the local grid during these periods....

NIO’s battery-swapping services operate under a Battery-as-a-Service (BaaS) model. As of November 2023, NIO had established 2,217 battery-swapping stations across six markets, completing nearly 33 million battery swaps for its users. ...
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CATL, the leading Chinese EV battery producer, has also noticed the potential of the BaaS model and its unique advantage in developing and producing EV batteries better suited for this business model. In 2022, it entered this market with EVOGO, an ambitious platform solution based on its modular-designed battery.

In 2024, CATL doubled down its effort in the battery-swapping model by establishing a joint venture with the leading Chinese ride-hailing platform Didi. This collaboration can leverage on Didi’s large network of commercial drivers, providing a sizable market for EV manufacturers who choose to adopt CATL’s battery-swapping solution...."

There will always be nay-sayers, nit-pickers, haters, glass-half-empty folks, anytime anything new comes along. If they ran things, there would never be any innovation. We should listen to their criticisms and then find work-arounds, solutions to any real problems they might point out, and proceed with the experiment.

I'd prefer the swapping batteries to fast-charging.

EDIT: from AMPLE web site: "An Ample station is 3-10 times cheaper than a fast-charging station. It’s cheaper to build and cheaper to install. So, Ample is able to deliver energy at a cost that is 10-20% cheaper than gas. "

 

[chl]

Elon promised to demo a battery swap within the next year at one of his “Battery Day” events. I think it was 2013. Never happened.

I think there are a couple reasons that this won’t take off.
1. Typically, the original batteries are going to outlast the car.
2. I don’t want to swap my battery and chance getting one that’s degraded more than my existing one. I’d rather just charge.

"...the EV giant, Tesla, has also tried to build battery-swapping stations, aiming to change its Model S’s battery pack in 90 seconds in 2013. However, after receiving a lacklustre reception from Tesla’s customers, the battery-swapping plan was shelved in 2015. ..." https://www.forbes.com/sites/lbsbus...-swapping-services-and-why-their-time-is-now/

That was then, this is now.

Re:
1) but that depends on how they are used and how useful they still are when the warranty expires and they have 80% capacity and therefore 80% of the original range.
2) in the preferred model the battery would be the responsibility/owned by the swapping company and they would not be fast charging the batteries which degrades them faster-ish, your up-front cost for the EV would be a boat-load lower as a result. Any company that could not provide a swap battery in good condition will go out of business PDQ and the lease contract for the battery swapping would have to have guarantees to that effect, among others.

 

[chl]

There will be plenty of opportunities for aftermarket battery solutions in the near future. Modders will be just as involved in EVs as they are with ICE now.

There are/were several out there for the Leaf in the 2010's, adding a second battery pack in the hatch-back area was one. Nissan could up-grade the battery for a newer one for a couple years, but then they changed things too much and the newer batteries weren't made backwards compatible.

 

[chl]

The demo did happen, I remember watching it.
https://www.tesla.com/videos/battery-swap-event

Elon claimed afterwards that there wasn't enough interest in it so he dropped it. It might be a viable solution for people who rent the batteries (kinda like what Vinfast does) and just use them as city commuters and don't have a means to charge at home. They could then drive like normal, wait until 10-15% then stop by the local battery swap station on the way home and get a fresh battery. The economical side of it is still a serious problem though.

Yes, for apt dwellings not being able to charge at home is a big problem.
I know several people in that boat.
In our area they had to pass laws to require HOA's to allow vehicle charging on the HOA property, so HOA's can also be an issue with home charging.

 

[chl]

What's the life cycle of a vehicle. In terms of years?

I think you're overestimating the tech. 2-3x more capable? Not for a long time.

That is the great thing about the design of the lightning battery box, easily replaced.

Finally, home charging is where its at. Period. The logistics of battery swap stations is way more complex than dcfc infrastructure.

I think a large part of the reason EV battery tech will develop more rapidly now and in the future is that there are so many more EVs around now. When it was just Tesla and Nissan mass-producing them in the 2010's battery progress was slow, but not zero.

An article about the evolution of EV battery tech: https://usccg.com/blog/charged-up-the-evolution-of-battery-technology-for-electric-vehicles/

The trend upward is becoming steeper:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ty-since-the-mid-80s-until-now_fig5_350093457

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Elon promised to demo a battery swap within the next year at one of his “Battery Day” events. I think it was 2013. Never happened.

I think there are a couple reasons that this won’t take off.
1. Typically, the original batteries are going to outlast the car.
2. I don’t want to swap my battery and chance getting one that’s degraded more than my existing one. I’d rather just charge.

@Zprime29

Not only did the demo happen, Tesla operated a swap station in CA as a pilot. There were a couple of issues that ultimately led to shutting it down and investing the capital into the SC network.

1) Charging speeds increased enough that time to swap wasn’t much more beneficial to charging. (If we can maintain a. Flat 250kW, we would fuel up as quickly as gasoline)

2) Complaints about battery quality and warranty concerns of the one you swapped out vs the one you received.

3) Space constraints. While automated battery swaps are possible the facility was more the size of a drive through car wash vs stuffing 6 superchargers in existing parking spots.

4) Inventory and capital. Tesla didn’t have a ton of cash on hand to have extra batteries stocked for swapping.

 

[Zprime29]

@Zprime29

Not only did the demo happen, Tesla operated a swap station in CA as a pilot. There were a couple of issues that ultimately led to shutting it down and investing the capital into the SC network.

1) Charging speeds increased enough that time to swap wasn’t much more beneficial to charging. (If we can maintain a. Flat 250kW, we would fuel up as quickly as gasoline)

2) Complaints about battery quality and warranty concerns of the one you swapped out vs the one you received.

3) Space constraints. While automated battery swaps are possible the facility was more the size of a drive through car wash vs stuffing 6 superchargers in existing parking spots.

4) Inventory and capital. Tesla didn’t have a ton of cash on hand to have extra batteries stocked for swapping.

Ah, so it seems like even if there was interest it just isn't a great idea for a startup. We all know how much China subsidizes their EV's so it was more viable for NIO to accomplish. It's an interesting concept, but I think I'm in the "no thanks" camp. I'm happy with what we have and will wait for charging/battery tech to get better.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Ah, so it seems like even if there was interest it just isn't a great idea for a startup. We all know how much China subsidizes their EV's so it was more viable for NIO to accomplish. It's an interesting concept, but I think I'm in the "no thanks" camp. I'm happy with what we have and will wait for charging/battery tech to get better.

Adoption is definitely easier when it’s subsidized.

There’s also a cultural difference. We (myself particularly) likes to own and control my own. I would imagine in a communistic/socialistic society there’s more acceptance on a shared responsibility mentality. I would think that makes adoption a tad easier.

The other is population density. They were able to launch this in metros which required less frequent swaps per car but could sustain a high volume of swaps in general for profitability. In the same manner this might be adoptable in cities where a driver goes maybe 20 miles a week, but it wouldn’t fly in sub-rural areas where folks drive easily a hundred miles a day where a swap station could sit idle for days just eating up rent for the commercial space.

NIO at one point was also selling cars without the batteries. So you would buy a shell of a car for say $20,000, then subscribe to a battery lease swap plan. This drove affordability of cars. So you would never fully own the battery. That probably made it more palatable as well.

That’s probably the model I can see us adopting in metro areas. A zip car type mentality. I buy a shell for $10,000 USD, and lease a battery plan. But for us, if I live in a metro I either don’t need a car or won’t want to pay to park a car. And if I don’t want to own a car, I won’t need to lease a battery. And if I want to own a car and I’m willing to pay to not share a car with others…why would I want to share my battery?

It’s an interesting solution/adoption situation.

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