NACS charge port retrofit for 22-24 Lightnings?

[Ekiehn]

You only need an adapter right now because the truck side currently has separate pins for AC and DC.

If you add an NACS connector on the truck and expect to use it for both AC and DC, like Tesla, then you need some hardware (and probably software) to connect the NACS pins to the battery or the onboard AC handling circuitry depending what you're hooked up to.

Maybe you could add a NACS port for DC only or something, with relatively simple wiring, but you'd still want some interlocks in case someone plugs an AC Tesla EVSE into it.

I can't really see any sort of retrofit being feasible until Ford releases a version of the truck with the NACS connector only. Then you might be able to swap in those parts. Maybe.

I agree a retrofit with NACS cables from Ford would be easier "maybe" but I was thinking of a little more Rube Goldberg design, use an existing ccs cable bundle tied into the existing wiring, then an adapter plugged into it so the Tesla NACS adapter would plug into that... maybe a pipe dream ...

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[GunRack]

What if we pushed the whole CCS assembly back a bit, permanently attached the NACS adaptor to our CCS port, then had a new face plate over the adaptor so it just looks like its stock NACS?

We'd need what, 6" or so and a new faceplate?

Or... just burry the whole thing (CCS and NACS adaptor) inside the truck well somewhere and get a short NACS extension cord to attach to a new faceplate. Might be easier if we don't have depth.

 

[tls]

What if we pushed the whole CCS assembly back a bit, permanently attached the NACS adaptor to our CCS port, then had a new face plate over the adaptor so it just looks like its stock NACS?

You would lose the ability to charge from AC chargers (in other words, no more home charging!) if you did that.

 

[GunRack]

You would lose the ability to charge from AC chargers (in other words, no more home charging!) if you did that.

Why is that? Does the adapter not allow for a home charger even with a NACS plug in?

 

[tls]

Why is that? Does the adapter not allow for a home charger even with a NACS plug in?

As noted above, the NACS connector uses the same pins for AC and DC. NACS cars have an extra set of contactors to switch that single pair of pins between AC and DC. Our trucks don't.

That's why you need a different NACS to CCS adapter for AC and DC charging. You will not be able to use the NACS fast charging adapter to charge your car from a Tesla Wall Connector, and you can't use a TeslaTap or similar with a Supercharger. These two types of adapters connect the two main conductors on the NACS plug to two different sets of conductors on the CCS receptacle.

 

[GunRack]

As noted above, the NACS connector uses the same pins for AC and DC. NACS cars have an extra set of contactors to switch that single pair of pins between AC and DC. Our trucks don't.

That's why you need a different NACS to CCS adapter for AC and DC charging. You will not be able to use the NACS fast charging adapter to charge your car from a Tesla Wall Connector, and you can't use a TeslaTap or similar with a Supercharger. These two types of adapters connect the two main conductors on the NACS plug to two different sets of conductors on the CCS receptacle.

So the adapter doesn't do any contact switching at all? All its doing is passing the DC pins straight from one end to the other? Jeez, thats pretty cheap and crappy. I thought the whole reason we were all waiting on these adapters was due to engineering and the complexity of the device. But it sounds like its $5 of plastic and tin that's just slightly different than the plastic and tin adaptors already out there?

 

[Pioneer74]

So the adapter doesn't do any contact switching at all? All its doing is passing the DC pins straight from one end to the other? Jeez, thats pretty cheap and crappy. I thought the whole reason we were all waiting on these adapters was due to engineering and the complexity of the device. But it sounds like its $5 of plastic and tin that's just slightly different than the plastic and tin adaptors already out there?

$5 of plastic and tin that has to accept 500 amps at 1000V, for long periods of time, and not spontaneously combust.

 

[tls]

$5 of plastic and tin that has to accept 500 amps at 1000V, for long periods of time, and not spontaneously combust.

Also, note that in order to switch between AC and DC modes, an active adapter would need a CPU, appropriate software, and a contactor that could switch 500 amps at 1000V. Even if we assume the contactor could be purpose-built on the assumption that the software would never switch it with voltage present, it still has to internally be able to handle that much current and dissipate the resulting heat - it's going to be the size of your fist, at least. And all this has to be packaged up in a totally sealed, water-tight assembly (look at all the problems with AC charging adapters eventually letting some water in and failing - now imagine what could happen with up to 5X the voltage and 6X the current) and withstand thousands of uses over a period of years. And remember, that contactor is an electromechanical device with moving parts.

Honestly I would very, very much prefer to carry two simple, passive adapters, one for AC charging and one for DC charging, than something like that. The situation is different if all this is built into the car, where there is much more physical room to implement it, there is already a software stack to tell contactors what to do, and the vehicle itself provides the weatherproof enclosure.

 

[carys98]

Also, note that in order to switch between AC and DC modes, an active adapter would need a CPU, appropriate software, and a contactor that could switch 500 amps at 1000V. Even if we assume the contactor could be purpose-built on the assumption that the software would never switch it with voltage present, it still has to internally be able to handle that much current and dissipate the resulting heat - it's going to be the size of your fist, at least. And all this has to be packaged up in a totally sealed, water-tight assembly (look at all the problems with AC charging adapters eventually letting some water in and failing - now imagine what could happen with up to 5X the voltage and 6X the current) and withstand thousands of uses over a period of years. And remember, that contactor is an electromechanical device with moving parts.

Honestly I would very, very much prefer to carry two simple, passive adapters, one for AC charging and one for DC charging, than something like that. The situation is different if all this is built into the car, where there is much more physical room to implement it, there is already a software stack to tell contactors what to do, and the vehicle itself provides the weatherproof enclosure.

Don’t forget, that onboard CPU needs its own onboard power source. Until the negotiation between the vehicle and the charger are complete there is no power coming from either side.

 

[GunRack]

$5 of plastic and tin that has to accept 500 amps at 1000V, for long periods of time, and not spontaneously combust.

Its some wire, maybe copper, that connects two pins on one side to two pins on the other over 5-6 inches using established connector standards. It's just not a big engineering challenge compared to say the NACS plug end itself. At scale, these adaptors are not going to have a very high bom.

That's a bummer though, obviously I hadn't really thought about how they were doing the DC adaptors. Certainly not easy to get electronically controlled contactors inside the adaptor. Thats not going to work now that I think about it. I guess I thought it had more to do with the car's software side and used existing AC/DC contactors for disconnect carside. Perhaps that isn't possible on the DC rail. So... what a bummer. I had hoped it'd be easier

 

[XENOILPHOBE]

I was hopeful too, I'm just glad they went to one standard. I almost didn't buy the Ford due to the soon to be obsolete CSS standard here in the US.

A possible work around would be to have NACS AC port on one side and a NACS DC port on the other side, there is always a way with cash and ingenuity, I do it all the time around my house and I don't really want to deal with adapters when I have 3 homes already prewired with the NACS standard.

I agree with you the BOM is cheap, it's the 5 guys standing around telling you can't do it that are expensive, get them out the room and we can figure it out. The more challenging part would be preventing both ports being used at the same time, as that could create issues, depending on the the CSS architecture.

https://www.electronicdesign.com/ma...-the-sae-j1772-and-ccs-ev-charging-interfaces

Vehicle coupler
See also: SAE J1772 and Type 2 connector
CCS Combo connectors

Combo 1
The vehicle coupler is composed of the vehicle connector, which is mounted at the end of a flexible cable, and the vehicle inlet, the counterpart of the connector, which is located within the vehicle. The CCS couplers were based on the Type 1 coupler, the North American standard, and Type 2 coupler, the European standard, as described in IEC 62196-2. One of the challenges of the Combined Charging System was to develop a vehicle inlet which is compatible with both the existing AC vehicle connectors and additional DC contacts. For both Type 1 and Type 2 this has been accomplished by extending the inlet with two additional DC contacts below the existing AC and communication contacts. The resulting new configurations are commonly known as Combo 1 and Combo 2.

For the DC vehicle connector, the implementation varies slightly between Combo 1 and Combo 2. In the case of Combo 1 the connector is extended by two DC contacts, while the Type 1 portion of the connector remains the same with the AC contacts (L1 & N) being unused. For Combo 2 the AC contacts (L1, L2, L3 & N) are completely removed from the connector and therefore the Type 2 portion of the connector has only three contacts remaining – two communication contacts and a protective earth. The vehicle inlet may retain ACcontacts to allow non-CCS AC charging.

In both cases, communication and protective earth functions are covered by the original Type 1 or 2 portion of the connector. The Type 1 and Type 2 connectors are described in IEC 62196-2, while the Combo 1 and Combo 2 connectors are described in IEC 62196-3 as Configurations EE and FF.[citation needed]

 

[XENOILPHOBE]

$5 of plastic and tin that has to accept 500 amps at 1000V, for long periods of time, and not spontaneously combust.

That's only on the DC side, the AC Side would be engineered for 240V 100 AMP, which would have a much lower BOM. Assumping that you installed two ports aftermarket, one DC on one side and one AC on the other side of the vehicle, then tapping into the CSS DC and AC ports with two separate receptacles.

More info on NACS Adoption (AKA SAE J3400)

The majority[53] of EVs sold in the United States are made by Tesla and therefore do not natively support CCS charging, but instead used the proprietary Tesla connector from the early-2010s through 2022, though newer Tesla cars also support CCS with a separately sold adapter.[54] In November 2022, Tesla renamed its previously proprietary charging connector to the North American Charging Standard (NACS), making the specifications available to other EV manufacturers and allowing it to support the same signalling standard as CCS.[55][56][57][58]

In 2023, Ford Motor Company, General Motors, and Rivian announced that they would use NACS instead of CCS connectors on all future North American BEV models. Vehicles will initially come with an adapter in 2024, but new models starting from 2025 will be built with native NACS ports.[59][60][61]

Subsequently, other EV companies signed agreements for native NACS adoption, including Aptera, BMW Group, Fisker, Honda, Hyundai Motor Group, Jaguar, Lucid, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Polestar, Subaru, Toyota, and Volvo. Many major charging networks and charging equipment suppliers also announced support for NACS, including EVgo, FLO, ABB E-Mobility, and EverCharge. NACS was subsequently ratified internationally as standard SAE J3400.

This has led to predictions that CCS1 will soon be obsolete, as it is bigger, heavier and more expensive than NACS.[62][63][64][65][66]

As a result, Hilton Worldwide announced an agreement with Tesla to install 20,000 EVSEs across 2,000 of its properties in North America by 2025.[67] - My Hilton Honors card is going to get more points in 2025!

 

[Tom M]

Any idea if there is a way, or will be a way to retrofit the lightning CCS to a NACS plug without adapters?

No. The NACS pins do both AC and DC: the vehicle sort out which operation to perform. For CCS1 the AC and DC pins are separate. The car doesn’t have the hardware to switch for AC supplied on the DC pins or vice versa.

 

[XENOILPHOBE]

I wouldn't need hardware to switch pins.

The existing drivers side port could be dedicated to AC only charging, which is what most people use everyday.


The passenger side port could be dedicated to DC only, which would be used less frequently.

 

[astrand1]

for the next 5-10 years, CCS will still be the go-to DC Fast Charging for most all 'other' EV models, even those with NACS in the coming model years - unless EA, Chargepoint, EVgo, and all the other third party charging providers SUDDENLY switch TOTALLY to NACS-only cables, which is highly unlikely anytime soon, there's no reason to 'worry' about whether you have a CCS inlet, or NACS... you're going to be using an ADAPTER, either way...

NACS is also slower charging.
NACS is also much more expensive at Superchargers.

it makes little sense to worry about it anytime in the next several years, for sure.

What do you mean more expensive? When I did my last trip a few months ago from LA to Michigan I found that more the most part the SC were cheaper per kWh than EA. And I had the membership for both EA and SC.

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