Selling Your Order or Plan to Sell Lightning?

[Ccarm6]

I’m familiar with the subscription model and that it’s all profit. Look at Microsoft 365 as the example, no chance of paying once and done like 10+ years ago. I drove Volkswagens long enough to be suspect of everything breaking at some point. If it weren’t for the MPG and performance characteristics of the TDI I would’ve moved away from VW much sooner. My last Touareg had a sunroof go bad just out of warranty, fortunately I got the dealership to goodwill it otherwise the repair was over $4K.

Exactly my point though. The cost of a recurring subscription is greater than the entirety of the repair of the subscribed feature usually after only a few years, so why would you want to pay multiples of that in the event that a feature malfunctions maybe once every 10-15 years? In addition, why would I pay twice for a feature, once through the purchase of the vehicle and again through recurring subscription? I get that some people argue for subscription model, but I’m the guy that refuses warranty on just about everything because it’s the closest thing to a scam in my opinion. If you need any evidence, just try to follow through with a warranty claim on something and see how many months wasted waiting/hours wasted on the phone fighting/aggravation you have to deal with just to have a warranty company follow through with their end of the deal. They can take that subscription model right to the dump IMO.

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[shutterbug]

These mega-companies are interested in subscription model because it results in huge recurring revenue with minimal overhead. I’ve got a 15 year old truck still driving around with pretty much every tech feature still intact (remote start, heated seats and wheel, etc). I don’t need to be charged yearly to have access to a function and reassure myself that the company will fix it in the pretty unlikely chance that something malfunctions. Warranty companies are in the business of making money, not insuring their products.

None of these feature are covered by a subscription. So far the only features that Ford considers subscriptions are:

• Blue Cruise
• Navigation
• EA Pass+ annual subscription

Presumably you want Ford to update relevant maps for the first 2 and the 3rd is the same as EAs own subscription , but you get to use the lower charge pricing with Plug&Charge.

 

[Ccarm6]

None of these feature are covered by a subscription. So far the only features that Ford considers subscriptions are:

• Blue Cruise
• Navigation
• EA Pass+ annual subscription

Presumably you want Ford to update relevant maps for the first 2 and the 3rd is the same as EAs own subscription , but you get to use the lower charge pricing with Plug&Charge.

See below article:
https://www.businessinsider.com/car-feature-subscriptions-add-ons-bmw-ford-toyota-gm-2022-2?amp

I am arguing to never ever utilize subscription model to “unlock” features that are built into the car like it seems auto companies want to move towards. I don’t need to make a recurring payment to access my car’s heated seat feature that I paid for when I purchased.

 

[sotek2345]

To me, if you want to go to a subscription model, go wholesale. Let me subscribe to Ford - and take any car off the lot I want (maybe with tiers locking out higher trims for higher cost). I know some brands have tried this, and I have been intrigued. Being able to swap out and try out new vehicles is appealing. You can also much more easily right size the vehicle to the application.

 

[shutterbug]

See below article:
https://www.businessinsider.com/car-feature-subscriptions-add-ons-bmw-ford-toyota-gm-2022-2?amp

I am arguing to never ever utilize subscription model to “unlock” features that are built into the car like it seems auto companies want to move towards. I don’t need to make a recurring payment to access my car’s heated seat feature that I paid for when I purchased.

Companies, and especially consultants float all kinds of crazy ideas, but
In 2019, BMW abandoned a plan to charge $80 per year for Apple CarPlay after widespread pushback
Toyota said it would review a subscription plan that unintentionally paywalled use of the key fob for remote start
Notice, that the only people they actually quoted are consultants.

 

[ExCivilian]

Thats not true at all, since Ford bundles 10+ options into a trim level. If you want only 1 option, you are stuck. You cannot piecemeal. All or nothing!

That's more to do with chip shortages and production capacity than Ford's position on how vehicles could be sold. There was a time when everyone could get the color Ford they wanted...so long as it was black! That was over a hundred years ago and I doubt many people would see it as "progress" if it went back to that.

Tesla does like every other EV manufacturer and will only sell you the premium model and sometimes some form of a base model. There are no "options" to speak of, however, it's not like there's a robust menu of choices. In that context it seems like a strange critique to point out Ford is providing a slew of options but they're all packaged up so it sucks.

VW, for example, won't even be offering sticks anymore now that they're committed to fully electrified in the near-term; even when they did offer them it's not like you could option it on any vehicle other than the most de-contented vehicle imaginable. If you got any other trim level you're stuck dealing with a leaky pano roof. I just checked Tesla's page and they're still only offering five paint colors and two interiors more than a decade after learning how to manufacture a vehicle.

To me, if you want to go to a subscription model, go wholesale. Let me subscribe to Ford - and take any car off the lot I want (maybe with tiers locking out higher trims for higher cost). I know some brands have tried this, and I have been intrigued. Being able to swap out and try out new vehicles is appealing. You can also much more easily right size the vehicle to the application.

Isn't that called a lease?

IF, and that's a big if, the other dealer is serious about a 'flip' of my truck, he'd have to give me a REALLY good profit margin, since then I'd be OUT of a new truck,

Don't forget to consider the potential loss of any federal (and potentially state) rebates. The feds explicitly restrict resellers from pocketing the $7,500. I don't know how likely they are to enforce it, and it would ordinarily be difficult to prove it, but if they choose to go after you it would be trivial to claw the funds back given you're describing a pre-arranged deal.

 

[jazzmanmonty]

Have you guys seen the recent news articles on Ford’s interests on OTA subscription services? They are catching on to the revenue generated by recurring subscription income which Tesla has somewhat pioneered. Their end goal are one-model vehicles, with all the bells and whistles, that you have to pay monthly/yearly in order to unlock the features you want (heated seats? That’s $50/yr, BlueCruise? That’s $200/yr, etc etc until we’re all broke). I hope competitive capitalism squashes this idea like the bug that it is. Let me pay one time for a feature that doesn’t require any upkeep or support and quit milking money out of my damn wallet.

This subscription crap has been around for a while. My wife's 2017 Chrysler had the same paid services you can activate if you want to use the app for remote start, location tracking, and other features. They also had monthly or daily 3G (lol) in-car hotspot usage for a price. It's so stupid. My Lincoln lets me do for free what she would have to pay for.

The only place i understand (but still don't like) the need for subscription service is for software/music/movies to prevent heavy pirating. I like paying the hundred bucks or whatever for MS Office and using it for 10 years at one price. I don't care for the latest updates and crap. Let me own my damn software and use it without paying monthly/annually. But everything's moving to the cloud and on-demand so the auto industry embracing it with open arms for new revenue streams. Too much cloud control of a car gets really dangerous for us.

 

[sotek2345]

Isn't that called a lease?

No - a lease lets you pick a vehicle once every few years. I mean a subscription that would let me swap out vehicles whenever I want. Pick up a sporty compact for daily commuting, then swap for a sports car or pickup truck on the weekends. Grab a large SUV or minivan (only if absolutely necessary) for a family vacation, etc. Automaker is responsible for all maintenance, insurance, etc.

 

[PA Lightning]

No - a lease lets you pick a vehicle once every few years. I mean a subscription that would let me swap out vehicles whenever I want. Pick up a sporty compact for daily commuting, then swap for a sports car or pickup truck on the weekends. Grab a large SUV or minivan (only if absolutely necessary) for a family vacation, etc. Automaker is responsible for all maintenance, insurance, etc.

Interesting concept, kind of like a more niche type car rental company.

I would not use such a service because I would have to clean out all the stuff I have in my middle console and glove box. That is a process but I do get to discover things I thought I had lost.

 

[Deleted member 9341]

That's more to do with chip shortages and production capacity than Ford's position on how vehicles could be sold. There was a time when everyone could get the color Ford they wanted...so long as it was black! That was over a hundred years ago and I doubt many people would see it as "progress" if it went back to that.

Tesla does like every other EV manufacturer and will only sell you the premium model and sometimes some form of a base model. There are no "options" to speak of, however, it's not like there's a robust menu of choices. In that context it seems like a strange critique to point out Ford is providing a slew of options but they're all packaged up so it sucks.

VW, for example, won't even be offering sticks anymore now that they're committed to fully electrified in the near-term; even when they did offer them it's not like you could option it on any vehicle other than the most de-contented vehicle imaginable. If you got any other trim level you're stuck dealing with a leaky pano roof. I just checked Tesla's page and they're still only offering five paint colors and two interiors more than a decade after learning how to manufacture a vehicle.

Isn't that called a lease?


Don't forget to consider the potential loss of any federal (and potentially state) rebates. The feds explicitly restrict resellers from pocketing the $7,500. I don't know how likely they are to enforce it, and it would ordinarily be difficult to prove it, but if they choose to go after you it would be trivial to claw the funds back given you're describing a pre-arranged deal.

No - a lease lets you pick a vehicle once every few years. I mean a subscription that would let me swap out vehicles whenever I want. Pick up a sporty compact for daily commuting, then swap for a sports car or pickup truck on the weekends. Grab a large SUV or minivan (only if absolutely necessary) for a family vacation, etc. Automaker is responsible for all maintenance, insurance, etc.

Right. Already exists. Last I knew Cadillac and BMW and I think Volvo quietly had it, but haven’t heard a peep about it in awhile. I know a friend that did Cadillac. Was $1,500/month but he loved it. Changed out cars at least monthly.

 

[broncoaz]

VW, for example, won't even be offering sticks anymore now that they're committed to fully electrified in the near-term; even when they did offer them it's not like you could option it on any vehicle other than the most de-contented vehicle imaginable. If you got any other trim level you're stuck dealing with a leaky pano roof. I just checked Tesla's page and they're still only offering five paint colors and two interiors more than a decade after learning how to manufacture a vehicle.

That is very unfortunate to hear about VW discontinuing manuals. My last one was a 2015 Passat TDI 6MT, it was a good car to drive even in the mid SE trim. It wasn’t missing any major features I cared about, and it had heated seats. My 2021 Bronco has heated seats, but Ford forced me all the way to the Badlands trim for $47K to get them with the manual transmission. Otherwise I would’ve been happy with a Black Diamond for $38.5K. Without the manual transmission I wouldn’t have been as enthusiastic about the Bronco.

 

[TaxmanHog]

No plans to flip my Lightning-Lariat-ER
Hypothetical flip gain-----------$20,000+
Federal Credit ------------------$7,500+
State Rebate-------------------$7,500+
The up front sales tax will be----- $5,000-
The City excise tax for year one is- $1,800-
Capital Gains Federal-S/T-------$4,400-
Capital Gains State-S/T---------$2,400-
===================================
Net profit/ADM motivation-----$21,400+
===================================

 

[EaglesPDX]

No plans to flip my Lightning-Lariat-ER
Hypothetical flip gain-----------$20,000+
Federal Credit ------------------$7,500+
State Rebate-------------------$7,500+
The up front sales tax will be----- $5,000-
The City excise tax for year one is- $1,800-
Capital Gains Federal-S/T-------$4,400-
Capital Gains State-S/T---------$2,400-
===================================
Net profit/ADM motivation-----$21,400+
===================================

Our state rebate requires keeping it two years. The Fed rebate says it cannot be purchased for "resale". Not sure how hard that is to prove but it would certainly be expensive if you had to duke it out with IRS. I wouldn't take that risk.

We have no sales or excise tax so that reduces the gain to $13k without the rebates.

I'm a bit skeptical that market will support $20k over list price especially since buyer does not get the tax credits either.

Co-worker wants it so I'd just do what works for him.

Wonder if people can lease vehicles to other people? I could take the Fed and local rebate. He "leases" it from me for the two years and we could split the $10k in rebates, making $5k on it pays for some fishing gear and he get's $5k off price.

 

[ExCivilian]

Wonder if people can lease vehicles to other people?

Yes, but at significant personal risk to the lessor.

 

[metroshot]

No plans to flip my Lightning-Lariat-ER
Hypothetical flip gain-----------$20,000+
Federal Credit ------------------$7,500+
State Rebate-------------------$7,500+
The up front sales tax will be----- $5,000-
The City excise tax for year one is- $1,800-
Capital Gains Federal-S/T-------$4,400-
Capital Gains State-S/T---------$2,400-
===================================
Net profit/ADM motivation-----$21,400+
===================================

Nice breakdown!

Q: What if you were to lease the truck and then offer it for sale well above the original price ?

Would you be able to escape the capital gains & taxes since the owner was the leasing company ?

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