So... How about them gas prices?

[Nick Gerteis]

This is a strawman and the foundation of most of these types of complaints.

The argument creates a false premise (switching to all EVs overnight or very quickly) and then talks about all the problems created by that false premise:

-Everyone can't afford EVs!!! (at today's prices if all cars were EVs tomorrow)
-Infrastructure can't handle it (if 100% of cars were EVs tomorrow)
-They don't work for every possible use case! (if you look at current EVs when EV trucks don't even actually exist yet)

Without the false premise of converting to EV overnight, and assuming an S-curve adoption over the next ~20 years (they will be mainstream QUICKLY, but it will take a long time to cover extreme use cases and near-complete replacement of the US fleet due to the typical 12-year lifespan), the solutions for these issues become far more easily achievable.

EV Affordability: There are already affordable EVs: Leaf, MINI, Bolt, etc. And if $20k, new, is too expensive, then you buy used. The selection of NEW gas vehicles substantially less than $20k is limited, too, and many are disposable junk like Mitsubishi Mirage and similar. Sure, if the changeover was overnight, then there are limited low-end options and some of them are compromised (like cheap gas cars, for that matter), but the options will increase and economies of scale/competition will bring pricing down over the next decade.

Infrastructure can be updated over the next ~20 years. There will be some growing pains, but the issues are greatly exaggerated based on the false premise of nearly overnight conversion to EVs.

EVs not working for every use case: That's why there's an S-curve adoption profile. At first, it's first adopters because they're willing to compromise. Then it's mainstream, which will be relatively soon, as EVs work fine for MANY use cases already. Then adoption slows at the top of the S-curve for people who have no charging access or extreme use cases like long-distance towing. Sure, EVs don't fit those use cases, now, but their capabilities are increasing, and those people will convert at the late end of the S-curve. It's not a big deal except under the false premise of immediate switch to all EVs.

So, yeah, switching over to all EVs tomorrow would bring major issues for buyers, infrastructure, supply, etc., but it's a false premise. Almost no one is suggesting an overnight switch, and I don't think *anyone* here has, so if we talk about a REALISTIC timeline, the issues are much more easily solved, and even some of the current issues are exaggerated, like EV cost and effective time to charge for normal use cases.

Thank you for this well thought out post, rebutting most of the anti EV noise. Only thing I can add re affordability is of course the substantial savings of no longer having to pay for gas. It makes sense at $2 per gallon, and even more so now! For many people it’s cheaper to finance or lease a new Nissan Leaf than to keep driving their current gas hog.

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[Dadofjax]

It's not even possible to go "All EVs" right now regardless of infrastructure. The grid will have to improve a little more quickly over the next 20 years to keep up but it's not much of a stretch. It can already manage up to about 50% EVs and we're at least 10 years from that many EVs being on the road.

That is what I said and Little Redlightning got all mad and told everyone to go buy a Nissan Leaf and then you jumped on his bandwagon, yet we are saying the same thing...Go figure.

 

[Dadofjax]

Thank you for this well thought out post, rebutting most of the anti EV noise. Nissan Leaf than to keep driving their current gas hog.

Anit-EV noise yet their only solution is for everyone to go buy a Nissan Leaf.

Might want to work on your talking points a little, if your only solution is for people to buy a crappy, stripped down Nissan Leaf you won't win many arguments.

 

[RickLightning]

EVs are not ready for mainstream yet. It would be impossible to do a roadtrip in a non-tesla right now if only 10% of pickups on the road were EVs. EA stations have so few chargers, there would be long lines at every one. Tesla seems to be the only manufacturer that cares about DC fast charging, and their new stations are getting 40-50 chargers along major highways.

I'm all for choice. If people want to keep ICE vehicles, that is fine with me. I'm only interested in EVs now. We need to increase oil production in the US until more people start the transition to EVs or Hybrids. We also need to seriously look at how bad our charging infrastructure is right now.

Hence the $5B that will be spent on chargers in the next 5 years.

 

[VTbuckeye]

EVs are not ready for mainstream yet. It would be impossible to do a roadtrip in a non-tesla right now if only 10% of pickups on the road were EVs. EA stations have so few chargers, there would be long lines at every one. Tesla seems to be the only manufacturer that cares about DC fast charging, and their new stations are getting 40-50 chargers along major highways.

I'm all for choice. If people want to keep ICE vehicles, that is fine with me. I'm only interested in EVs now. We need to increase oil production in the US until more people start the transition to EVs or Hybrids. We also need to seriously look at how bad our charging infrastructure is right now.

One of the many issues with upgrading/building out of the DC fast charging infrastructure is that for many EV users it will be infrequently used. I charge at home almost exclusively (occasional opportunity charge at a free location if the timing permits). As a home owner I would only need it for long trips. Hopefully my long trips do not coincide with everyone else making a long trip. The peak use could be vastly different than typical use and typical use may very well be not a lot. With ICE, every mile driven is fueled from a gas station. With EV anywhere from 0 to 100 percent of miles driven come from a DC fast charging station. Return on investment for building them may not be very high, though completely necessary for significant adoption of EVs.

 

[Mtnman1]

National crude oil production has steadily increased since 2008 and--believe it or not--continues to rise today.

Oil is sold in the international market and is produced in multiple countries. The USA has less ability to control the market than people think. We'd have a lot more control over the domestic market if we banned USA oil exports, but I don't think that would go over very well.

We do have a lot of control over domestic energy consumption,
though. If our goal is to wean ourselves off of oil from anti-democratic countries, consumption/efficiency needs to be just as important as production in our discussions.

Thats the point. Who cares about global market? There is no reason for the US to buy oil from anyone.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Thats the point. Who cares about global market? There is no reason for the US to buy oil from anyone.

Though, the global market determines the price. And while the US does not need to buy oil from anyone else, if the price is low enough that shipping it in tankers from overseas is cheaper than getting it locally, that is what companies will do.

 

[Ruination]

The invasion of the mouth breathers. Why do you guys care so much?

I love how you guys have no understanding of the oil market. "Just pump it ourselves". Yea, and then that company is going to sell it to the highest bidder around the world. Unless of course you are going to nationalize oil.

How are EVs not mainstream? I see a couple everyday. Gone are the days when seeing a Tesla was a rare occurrence.

EV demand far outstrips current production.

EVs are expensive, so are trucks.

Tolls. Tolls are the future.

Current EVs may not fit YOUR current lifestyle and needs, no one cares.

Now excuse me while I drop 1k on a turbo leaking coolant that needs a $12 replacement fitting.

 

[Mtnman1]

Because if we produced more in this country, and didn't buy from Russia, that would help wean us off of fossil fuels? That's what you said in your first reply.

Healthy conversation can't be had with people that make statements not based on facts. It's a waste of time on both parties to try and convince the other when inaccurate statements are used instead of facts.

What if we got rid of the ethanol subsidies? That would a) raise the price of gas, lowering consumption, b) lower the price of corn for non-fuel usage. Would you support that?

Serious question - did you disable the functionality in your F-150 that turned the engine off at stoplights that was designed to save gas? Do you use the Ecomode?

Yes. 100% energy independance means you can do whatever you want. How many m/billions will be saved to invest into research yearly? Politics is the only reason the US buys oil. Payments to foreign governments that dont need a vote and kickbacks.

Weaning off fossils is not an overnight or even a 10 yr process. Need viable solutions first. Which do not exist currently. This is fact. It is not possible to run the grid on wind and solar. Fact. Not with some new discoveries.

I have spent the last 32 yrs designing power plants and upgrading the grid. And yes we are in renewables as well. We have the most fast charge stations installed in Europe. We are big into wind and solar.

1. My truck will not be built with Auto S/S. Ford deleted. Eco Mode will actually be worse in my situation.

2. My Ranger has it and never kicks on becuase i do not live in the city or suburbs. I drove 87 miles yesterday and it did not engage once.

3. Dont assume everyone has the same cirmumstances as you.
No one out here could live with only EV. Ranges need to increase, charge times decreased, and cost decrease a bunch before it is feasable.

Too bad the US doesnt have a few extra $$ to infest in research.

 

[beatle]

One of the many issues with upgrading/building out of the DC fast charging infrastructure is that for many EV users it will be infrequently used. I charge at home almost exclusively (occasional opportunity charge at a free location if the timing permits). As a home owner I would only need it for long trips. Hopefully my long trips do not coincide with everyone else making a long trip. The peak use could be vastly different than typical use and typical use may very well be not a lot. With ICE, every mile driven is fueled from a gas station. With EV anywhere from 0 to 100 percent of miles driven come from a DC fast charging station. Return on investment for building them may not be very high, though completely necessary for significant adoption of EVs.

I know this will be a very unpopular "big business" idea, but I wish they'd simply charge more to DCFC. I use it so infrequently (I've supercharged all of 42 times in 29 months of owning a Tesla) that the cost really isn't a big deal when it is so rare. And my car is only rated at 242 miles of range on a full charge. With 300+ miles of range I'd need to DCFC even less.

Not that I'd look for companies to gouge the public, but DCFC is still cheaper than gas to travel even at 30-35c/kwh. The higher margin may incentivize companies to build more charging stations if they can see an ROI faster. Just having the option to charge in an area with no infrastructure is worth the premium. It was kind of a chore to work out a charging strategy during a trip to the beach in NC last year due to the lack of DCFC and hotels with L2 charging available.

 

[gtotco]

EVs are not ready for mainstream yet. It would be impossible to do a roadtrip in a non-tesla right now if only 10% of pickups on the road were EVs. EA stations have so few chargers, there would be long lines at every one. Tesla seems to be the only manufacturer that cares about DC fast charging, and their new stations are getting 40-50 chargers along major highways.

I'm all for choice. If people want to keep ICE vehicles, that is fine with me. I'm only interested in EVs now. We need to increase oil production in the US until more people start the transition to EVs or Hybrids. We also need to seriously look at how bad our charging infrastructure is right now.

One of the many issues with upgrading/building out of the DC fast charging infrastructure is that for many EV users it will be infrequently used. I charge at home almost exclusively (occasional opportunity charge at a free location if the timing permits). As a home owner I would only need it for long trips. Hopefully my long trips do not coincide with everyone else making a long trip. The peak use could be vastly different than typical use and typical use may very well be not a lot. With ICE, every mile driven is fueled from a gas station. With EV anywhere from 0 to 100 percent of miles driven come from a DC fast charging station. Return on investment for building them may not be very high, though completely necessary for significant adoption of EVs.

To be fair a lot of homeowners don’t have a place to charge. We own 3 houses, only one of which has a place to park (other two are street parking). Closest supercharger is in a Walmart parking lot 20 minutes away.

 

[Mtnman1]

The invasion of the mouth breathers. Why do you guys care so much?

I love how you guys have no understanding of the oil market. "Just pump it ourselves". Yea, and then that company is going to sell it to the highest bidder around the world. Unless of course you are going to nationalize oil.

How are EVs not mainstream? I see a couple everyday. Gone are the days when seeing a Tesla was a rare occurrence.

EV demand far outstrips current production.

EVs are expensive, so are trucks.

Tolls. Tolls are the future.

Current EVs may not fit YOUR current lifestyle and needs, no one cares.

Now excuse me while I drop 1k on a turbo leaking coolant that needs a $12 replacement fitting.

Lol. Wait until the 20k battery replace

 

[Ruination]

Lol. Wait until the 20k battery replace

Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

That new battery will most likely be a substantial upgrade.

Opposed to a 50k new truck?

 

[JohnMcClane]

Did not pack enough popcorn for this conversation.

Anyone want to hear my families experience of owning a Tesla Model X since April 2017?

 

[VTbuckeye]

Did not pack enough popcorn for this conversation.

Anyone want to hear my families experience of owning a Tesla Model X since April 2017?

Sure, but I don't know that everyone else does.

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