Truck Recommended Plugging in in Cold Weather

[MickeyAO]

The INL did a pretty interesting study on Leafs that show the range degradation between L2 and DC is not as bad as its made out to be ( DC Fast Charge Effects on Battery Life and Performance Study - 50,000 Mile Update (energy.gov) ) that said it would be interesting to see that done again on something that can really pull some juice. Anybody have any numbers from Tesla?

I know how bad it was on the early Model S cells (we ran constant fast charges followed by max discharge over and over again) but I do not know what the current cells are capable of.

If you will remember, Tesla said that excessive fast charging on early Model S would void the warranty...for good reason as our research found out.

Sponsored

 

[vandy1981]

Also one should let the battery cool down a couple hours before charging because heat will also shorten battery life, and charging creates heat.

The truck's BMS will throttle your charging speed long before you can do any damage to the battery. I wouldn't overthink this.

 

[vandy1981]

I know how bad it was on the early Model S cells (we ran constant fast charges followed by max discharge over and over again) but I do not know what the current cells are capable of.

If you will remember, Tesla said that excessive fast charging on early Model S would void the warranty...for good reason as our research found out.

Were you using the vehicle's BMS in this testing or were you charging/discharging the cells directly?

My hypothesis is that the BMS on modern EVs is programmed to prevent damage to the pack, even with the most idiotic behavior.

 

[MickeyAO]

Were you using the vehicle's BMS in this testing or were you charging/discharging the cells directly?

My hypothesis is that the BMS on modern EVs is programmed to prevent damage to the pack, even with the most idiotic behavior.

We recorded the fast charge profile and replicated it at the cell level.

 

[chl]

I am still not clear what does permanent damage to the battery and what just reduces performance short term. Could you please explain a bit more what does it mean battery does not like cold like humans? Can it die from hypothermia?

My understanding is added resistance means reduced current which means slower charging and reduction in available power. If that is all there is to it, I would never plug mine in when it is at 80% SOC (most of my drives are unplanned, infrequent and very short). I would not be stranded for reduction in range, and I can drive slower if the power is reduced.

However if going below certain temperature permanently damage the battery and reduce it’s capacity, and BMS does not protect the battery unless it is plugged in, then depending on what that temperature is and what the damage is, spending the extra energy to protect the battery may make sense.

Would you please explain if there are any conditions under which there will be permanent damage (at rest unplugged, charging or driving with cold battery)?

It's not about ohm's law and resistance. It's about electro-chemical processes in the battery.
Cold REDUCES the resistance of most conductors, e.g., copper wire whereas heat increases the resistance.

The electro-chemical processes that slow down in the cold slowing down the ability to discharge the stored energy (reduced ability to produce a current).
Cool (but not frozen) batteries last longer, i.e., hold their charge longer for that reason.

https://www.thoughtco.com/why-batteries-discharge-quickly-cold-weather-607889

On the other hand with Lithium batteries, if they get too hot, can catch fire or explode (thermal runaway) which can happen with over-charging or charging too fast which is why the EV controls/limits the charge to a safe curve - fast chargers have circuitry built-in that has that effect, hopefully - or if the battery temperature gets too hot for any reason.

In Li batteries, it is also the anodes which in the Li batteries are generally made of graphite that seem to be another issue in cold weather:

"... when temps fall below freezing, these energy sources’ electrical performance declines, and when conditions are cold enough, they can fail to transfer any charge. It’s why some people living in the U.S. Midwest have trouble with their electric cars in the dead of winter, and why it’s risky to use these batteries in space explorations. Recently, scientists determined that the flat orientation of graphite in the anode is responsible for the drop in a lithium-ion battery’s energy storage capacity in the cold. So, Xi Wang, Jiannian Yao and colleagues wanted to modify the surface structure of a carbon-based material to improve the anode’s charge transfer process..."

https://www.acs.org/pressroom/press...tteries-that-last-longer-in-extreme-cold.html

Some studies suggest between 0-10 degrees F, an EV's range will drop 20 percent as a result of these factors.

EV batteries are designed to work optimally at 68 degrees F (20 degrees C). At higher or lower temps and range decreases.

Battery protection from cold temps:
On my 2012 Leaf, the Li battery warmer comes on when temps get to 14 degrees F to prevent battery damage. When the Leaf is driven or plugged in, the battery itself provides enough heat and does not need the heater.
I imagine the Lightning must have some similar feature, though I have not yet read up on it.

The Ford Lightning has an active cooling system, and models with the Max Tow package have an exclusive AC chiller just for this purpose.

Yes the Ford Lightning active cooling system will protect the battery from severe damage due to over-heating. But Ford still recommends letting the battery cool before charging to prolong life.
So essentially, the cooling takes time to reach the optimal temperature for best charging temperature for longevity.

PERMANENT DAMAGE Question:
While very unlikely, cold weather could severely permanently damage your Li battery if:
1) the battery warmer failed to engage when the temps got to a critical low or
2) your battery was so low that there was not enough 'juice' to power the battery warmer.

The battery warmer is there to prevent that.

My understanding is the battery warmer uses very little power - on the Leaf it is about 300W.

PRECONDITIONING the battery:
It seems to me the idea is to raise the battery temperature to the optimum or near-optimum temperature for the best range.
As mentioned above, the range in an EV in the cold is reduced due to 1) battery electro-chemical reaction slowing internally as well as 2) graphite anode design.
The pre-conditioning affects the electro-chemical reaction speed to get it up to near-optimum in theory anyway.

BATTERY LONGEVITY and HEAT/COLD
Li battery life is limited.
Excessive heat and/or excessive cold can severely affect that life.
Even the best active thermal management is not perfect, so the ambient temperature will affect the life span.

That's the bad news about EV's.

The good news is:
1) they are low maintenance - no oil changes, tune-ups, and other things associated with ICE trucks and they are clean, quiet, fast and powerful.
2) once the battery reaches the end of it's useful life, you could replace it for less than the cost of a new EV and have the equivalent of a new EV.
3) if the battery swapping companies succeed, you could have your EV modified to use a swappable battery, then the battery life span is someone else's problem.

That said, I don't think the Lightning is priced well for the general pick-up buying consumer - the original starting price point of $39.9k was closer to the mark to be competitive with ICE trucks.
It also appears that the battery may be under-sized for the vehicle - if this was a smaller truck, Maverick or Ranger sized, maybe the battery size would be adequate.
So it seems like it is probably best for relatively short trip utility at this point.
Until fast-charging infrastructure is built out nationwide, or battery swapping, or both, the range limitations will be an issue to many people, esp. in extreme temperature environments (hot or cold).
Ford could improve the range of the Lightning quite a bit, I suspect, if it used a more streamlined configuration, the way Tesla has done with their EV semi-truck cab.

https://electrek.co/guides/tesla-semi/

I had a reservation for a '22 and recently got my invite to order a '23, but am not going to at this point because of a few things now that I see what Ford is selling:
1) the price jump in all models
2) the unavailability of the Pro and XLT models - plenty of Lariats in my area sitting there on lots for $80k plus
3) the some what under-sized battery for the size of the vehicle although for my needs it might suffice
4) the lack of heated seats and steering wheel as standard features - I don't want to have to add a $1,000 option package or go to a higher priced model to get them
5) the ridiculous ADM's in my area ($4,000 to $20,000!)

Nice try Ford but no cigar.
They can do better if they re-think this a bit.
Alas.

 

[RickLightning]

Thank you.

The app says it’s plugged in and the circle was blue when I last looked.

For Level 1 and Level 2 charging, should I be limiting the charging to 80% or can I go higher (such as to 90%) without damaging the battery? I keep getting conflicting information - where some at the dealer say 80% and others say 90 to 95% won’t hurt and that 100% is fine if going on a trip. I do know that for DC Fast charging, the limit is recommended to 80%.

Why are you talking to "some at the dealer"?

The manual answers your charging question quite clearly, and the only reason they say to limit DC charging to 80% is COST - not harming the battery.

When you hit 80% while DC charging, the speed drops quite a bit. In some states, EA charges by the kilowatt hour. In about a dozen states, they charge by the minute. If you pay by the minute, then charging gets much more expensive at 81% then at 79%.

As to use of power during the night, my charger (JuiceBox) lets me see that. The Mach-E sips in 15 minute interviews not very often. A handful of times in temps 20 degrees and higher in a garage.

 

[Maxx]

Li battery life is limited.

I think I read somewhere that aging alone without use has some impact on loss of life for Li but I am not sure how big or small of a factor that is long term if a battery is at 50% charge and optimum temp.

1) the price jump in all models
2) the unavailability of the Pro and XLT models - plenty of Lariats in my area sitting there on lots for $80k plus
3) the some what under-sized battery for the size of the vehicle although for my needs it might suffice
4) the lack of heated seats and steering wheel as standard features - I don't want to have to add a $1,000 option package or go to a higher priced model to get them
5) the ridiculous ADM's in my area ($4,000 to $20,000!)

Yup,

1, 2 ). I would not go through with it if I could not get the pro at the price originally advertised. On the first round, Pro was not available and I passed. If my dealer try to pull something with pricing, I will pass again.

3). If we did not have an ICE for long distance traveling, this would not have worked as well for me. But standard battery should be enough for most of my uses.

4). 23 Pro comes with heated seat standard if you can get your hands on one.

5). I don’t think that is going to last. 23 car market may be a bit different than 22 and Ford is ramping up. You can always get the price in writing without ADM and make sure your deposit is refundable. If dealer started acting up, just let them have it.

But if you are not sure this is what you want at this price and don’t need it now, they will only get better if you wait.

 

[greenne]

For the lay person, can you explain what is happening to the battery if I don’t plug it in vs when it is plugged in during cold weather? You can assume the stste of charge is between 70 and 80 percent - which is always my target in case I have to make an unplanned trip of some moderate distance.

Also, does regular fast charging to 80 percent hurt the battery? As a practical matter, I do a 60/40 mix of level 2 and Dc Fast Charging.

Am I correct to assume the Battery Management system will run to protect the battery from cold temp damage regardless of whether the truck is plugged in or not? (The only difference is whether it uses stored power OR grid power to work).

If I have plenty of range(charge say above 20%) how is plugging it in operating the BMS any differently than not plugged in?

 

[rdr854]

Why are you talking to "some at the dealer"?

The manual answers your charging question quite clearly, and the only reason they say to limit DC charging to 80% is COST - not harming the battery.

When you hit 80% while DC charging, the speed drops quite a bit. In some states, EA charges by the kilowatt hour. In about a dozen states, they charge by the minute. If you pay by the minute, then charging gets much more expensive at 81% then at 79%.

As to use of power during the night, my charger (JuiceBox) lets me see that. The Mach-E sips in 15 minute interviews not very often. A handful of times in temps 20 degrees and higher in a garage.

You ask why I would ask the dealer?? The short answer is that while I could find a specific recommendation in the owner's manual for DC Fast Charging, I could not find one for AC charging when using 120 Volts or 240 Volts. I wanted to be sure that I would not harm my battery if I went to 85 or 90% or more State of Charge on a regular basis if using AC chargers.

 

[RickLightning]

You ask why I would ask the dealer?? The short answer is that while I could find a specific recommendation in the owner's manual for DC Fast Charging, I could not find one for AC charging when using 120 Volts or 240 Volts. I wanted to be sure that I would not harm my battery if I went to 85 or 90% or more State of Charge on a regular basis if using AC chargers.

Manuals used to say 90%. Ford changed it to "less than 100%".

From the manual:

With Charge Scheduling, you can improve
the high voltage battery's longevity by
delaying the start of charging and setting
a maximum charging limit. We recommend
you set your preferred charging times to
be at least 2-3 hours after your typical plug
in time. This allows the battery to cool
before charging begins. Additionally,
setting the maximum charge level to be
less than 100% for everyday usage reduces
strain on the battery.

 

[vandy1981]

Additionally,
setting the maximum charge level to be
less than 100% for everyday usage reduces
strain on the battery.

Definitely don't set it to 125% or we'll see you on Fox News.

 

[rdr854]

Manuals used to say 90%. Ford changed it to "less than 100%".

From the manual:

With Charge Scheduling, you can improve
the high voltage battery's longevity by
delaying the start of charging and setting
a maximum charging limit. We recommend
you set your preferred charging times to
be at least 2-3 hours after your typical plug
in time. This allows the battery to cool
before charging begins. Additionally,
setting the maximum charge level to be
less than 100% for everyday usage reduces
strain on the battery.

Thank you. I did not see that in the HTML version of the manual. I did find it in the PDF version.

 

[Ford Senior Master]

[

There is a lot of labor involved in battery removal and replacement.
Because of the design which does not make battery removal and replacement easy.

I guess you have never removed the EV battery pack from a Ford vehicle. It takes all of 1.5 hours to remove.

Sponsored