What software updates should Ford add to the lightning?

[Griddlez]

Make the 360 camera button a permanent on screen item, always up, or let us reprogram one of the hard buttons to do that.

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[PV2EV]

True! It really is software!

My guess is that Sync 4 runs on some hardware that isn't compatible with Android Auto - or it would cost too much to port, and the 2023 MY will be built with hardware specific to Android Auto

Edit:
I just did some Googling, and it seems that Sync 4 is based on Microsoft's Embedded Automotive, or at least some sort of Fork of it. Android Auto seems designed to run specifically on NVidia hardware and chips emulating a cell phone, so that is probably the core reason.

Edit again - Sync 4 runs on a version of QNX, not Microsoft. So both are UNIX derivates, but the hardware is different.

So we are on the same page, we are talking about Sync 4A on the 15.5” vertical Sync screen. Also, the assertion that MY2023 will get upgraded HW is an assumption.

Ford is not going to make 3 hardware changes (MME to MY22 to MY23). Either the Lightning starts with the upgraded hardware, or Ford has optimized the SW so it is faster on the lightning over the MME with the same HW, as has been noted abundantly. Both may be true as well.

Additionally MME has the i.MX 8 processor in the Sync screen, which apparently runs Linux/Android very well; https://www.nxp.com/design/software...s-for-i-mx-applications-processors:IMXANDROID

Assuming upgraded HW is needed, that leaves Ford having to maintain Sync 4A for MME 21/22 and Lightning MY22. This is not optimal for either Ford, or customers, as Android features get added, while 4A lags far behind.

If the rollout of the hardware and Android are together on MY23, both would be in testing now, with a cutover when they start MY23, say in October. This seems high risk, when given the effort to launch and maintain MY22. A more likely strategy would be to ship with new HW running Sync 4A, which is an additional test effort, then upgrade to Android.

I wish someone would ask Ford why MY22 won’t get the Android upgrade.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

Make the 360 camera button a permanent on screen item, always up, or let us reprogram one of the hard buttons to do that.

Oh, good idea.

So we are on the same page, we are talking about Sync 4A on the 15.5” vertical Sync screen. Also, the assertion that MY2023 will get upgraded HW is an assumption.

Ford is not going to make 3 hardware changes (MME to MY22 to MY23). Either the Lightning starts with the upgraded hardware, or Ford has optimized the SW so it is faster on the lightning over the MME with the same HW, as has been noted abundantly. Both may be true as well.

Additionally MME has the i.MX 8 processor in the Sync screen, which apparently runs Linux/Android very well; https://www.nxp.com/design/software...s-for-i-mx-applications-processors:IMXANDROID

Assuming upgraded HW is needed, that leaves Ford having to maintain Sync 4A for MME 21/22 and Lightning MY22. This is not optimal for either Ford, or customers, as Android features get added, while 4A lags far behind.

If the rollout of the hardware and Android are together on MY23, both would be in testing now, with a cutover when they start MY23, say in October. This seems high risk, when given the effort to launch and maintain MY22. A more likely strategy would be to ship with new HW running Sync 4A, which is an additional test effort, then upgrade to Android.

I wish someone would ask Ford why MY22 won’t get the Android upgrade.

Probably because of a hardware update. The reason Ford wants to go to Android Auto is the Google Maps integrations offer better features for drivers. Meaning, a better end user experience. The latest version of QNX was released in 2020. It is old from a feature set. Nvidia's hardware is in most cars now, and it is fast - Tesla used to use it before they used their own.

As for the logistics and the supply chain, Ford knows this better than we do, and if they can get new/cheaper hardware that performs better on the screen, you better believe that they change it during a hardware refresh.

While Android can run on lots of hardware, that does not mean it can run well. If the costs go down with the change, they will change the hardware.

 

[GDN]

I'm not sure there is any reason that Ford couldn't update the '22 to the new hardware/OS down the road. It might come at a cost to the owner, but could be done.

I may get the wrong module name, but I believe the one in question is the APIM - it will move from current OS to Android OS, maybe hardware update inside of it too. Unless Ford changes every other module in the truck that plugs into and communicate with the APIM and Gateway then this new Module/Android OS will have to be backward compatible in the '22. It will still have to talk to all of the other modules.

If Ford produces only 20K of these trucks and it cost $1500 for the part and upgrade that is a simple $30M. In the grand scheme of things that is small money to bring the functionality to the '22's and keep them all alike. It also likely can be done cheaper than $1500 - volume pricing on the part is likely only a few hundred bucks, then labor to the dealers to replace them. I'd even pay the labor to get it updated.

This is why it is critical that Ford standardize and make those parts upgradeable/replaceable. What will happen in 15 years if this part is not backward compatible.

Once again - they can see how Tesla does it if they want to. Tesla can replace the main computer of most any of their cars with the current version and offer upgrades to do so.

 

[FordLightningMan]

I wonder if patents come into play here? If Tesla does something first, such as sentry mode viewing through an app, can Ford just do it later?

I know that if you do something a little different, that's a way to often get around a patented process. I'm just curious if anything on the other automobiles will become exclusive to that brand, if it's accomplished elsewhere first.

My car is currently dropped off for a winter to summer tire switch. It's kinda cool to watch the progress in real time.

 

[GDN]

I wonder if patents come into play here? If Tesla does something first, such as sentry mode viewing through an app, can Ford just do it later?

I know that if you do something a little different, that's a way to often get around a patented process. I'm just curious if anything on the other automobiles will become exclusive to that brand, if it's accomplished elsewhere first.

My car is currently dropped off for a winter to summer tire switch. It's kinda cool to watch the progress in real time.

I also love this remote viewing of live activity around the car.

They can patent these items. Not sure if this is included but Musk has noted a few times he is willing to open his patents. I don't know if that is all of them, or just some of them.

One other item of note, while a 3rd party place like a Tire dealer can't shut your remote access off, Tesla can and does every time it is in the shop (they use a hidden access and code on the screen). They don't allow you remote access and you can't see where it is. It is disabled the second you drop it off.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

I just thought of another one - it might already be present, but I suspect the minutia are not.

You have driver profiles, for seat position, steering location, mirror adjustment etc.

There should also be profiles for driving regen preferences. When Kyle at Out of Spec reviewed the Lightning, he noted the issue with 1 pedal driving. That should be addressed - but on top of it, there should be additional options for the amount of regen in 1 pedal driving.

So, it would be ideal, that when I approach the lightning, it is set to 1 pedal driving with very aggressive regen. When my wife approaches, it should have less aggressive regen, as that is what she prefers while driving.

All the particulars of how you like to drive - above and beyond the stuff you see with an ICE truck should also be attached to the driver's profile.

 

[sotek2345]

I just thought of another one - it might already be present, but I suspect the minutia are not.

You have driver profiles, for seat position, steering location, mirror adjustment etc.

There should also be profiles for driving regen preferences. When Kyle at Out of Spec reviewed the Lightning, he noted the issue with 1 pedal driving. That should be addressed - but on top of it, there should be additional options for the amount of regen in 1 pedal driving.

So, it would be ideal, that when I approach the lightning, it is set to 1 pedal driving with very aggressive regen. When my wife approaches, it should have less aggressive regen, as that is what she prefers while driving.

All the particulars of how you like to drive - above and beyond the stuff you see with an ICE truck should also be attached to the driver's profile.

The Driver profile does all that in the Mach-e. Seat and mirror position (will have pedal position in the Lightning too) as well as drive mode, which controls regen, and 1 pedal setting (on/off) It also sets the radio, climate controls, propulsion sound, dark mode preference, and common apps on the infotainment. Pretty good setup!

 

[beatle]

I'm not sure there is any reason that Ford couldn't update the '22 to the new hardware/OS down the road. It might come at a cost to the owner, but could be done.

I may get the wrong module name, but I believe the one in question is the APIM - it will move from current OS to Android OS, maybe hardware update inside of it too. Unless Ford changes every other module in the truck that plugs into and communicate with the APIM and Gateway then this new Module/Android OS will have to be backward compatible in the '22. It will still have to talk to all of the other modules.

If Ford produces only 20K of these trucks and it cost $1500 for the part and upgrade that is a simple $30M. In the grand scheme of things that is small money to bring the functionality to the '22's and keep them all alike. It also likely can be done cheaper than $1500 - volume pricing on the part is likely only a few hundred bucks, then labor to the dealers to replace them. I'd even pay the labor to get it updated.

This is why it is critical that Ford standardize and make those parts upgradeable/replaceable. What will happen in 15 years if this part is not backward compatible.

Once again - they can see how Tesla does it if they want to. Tesla can replace the main computer of most any of their cars with the current version and offer upgrades to do so.

I don't think Ford cares that much about keeping the trucks the same, especially such a low volume first run truck. Perhaps they want to make an example of it though and show that they are technically agile. I'm hoping for the latter but would put more money on the former.

In case anyone else is not aware of the story on the MCU replacement/upgrade, Tesla had to recall the original MCU1 due to a failing eMMC chip and the overall board was not available any longer. They had to retrofit new eMMC chips into the old board, not very fun. Around this time they started offering a replacement MCU2 for $1500 where you turned in your old MCU1. This allowed Tesla to "cash in" on the recall, or at least defer some of the cost and at the same time allowing owners to upgrade. Though this work could generally be done in a day, those that took on the upgrade on their own said it was not simply plug and play.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

I don't think Ford cares that much about keeping the trucks the same, especially such a low volume first run truck. Perhaps they want to make an example of it though and show that they are technically agile. I'm hoping for the latter but would put more money on the former.

In case anyone else is not aware of the story on the MCU replacement/upgrade, Tesla had to recall the original MCU1 due to a failing eMMC chip and the overall board was not available any longer. They had to retrofit new eMMC chips into the old board, not very fun. Around this time they started offering a replacement MCU2 for $1500 where you turned in your old MCU1. This allowed Tesla to "cash in" on the recall, or at least defer some of the cost and at the same time allowing owners to upgrade. Though this work could generally be done in a day, those that took on the upgrade on their own said it was not simply plug and play.

I have to agree with you. There is no profit in it. Ford is a for-profit company. Trying to force backwards compatibility when it isn't a requirement just adds to the overall costs.

Realistically, for the 2023MY, having Android Auto will be great - the one thing that I would change if I could would be the battery voltage from 400 to 800 volts - but I doubt that transition will happen until later generations of the Lightning. Would love to be wrong about it though.

 

[GDN]

I have to agree with you. There is no profit in it. Ford is a for-profit company. Trying to force backwards compatibility when it isn't a requirement just adds to the overall costs.

There could be huge advantage to Ford to upgrade that APIM for 20K trucks. It might cost a few million, but it saves development for 2 different platforms. Now you can scare me like I'm afraid Ford might do and hang the 2022's out to dry and not continue to develop the software and add some features. If the new APIM/OS (Android) are in several model years any features they update or add for a few years will be backward compatible for all except 2022. So even if Ford were to split the cost or do it at cost, It would favor everyone for them to update the 2022's. I know I'm pushing my luck here.

To further what @beatle also noted about Tesla - they upgrade thousands of Model 3's from HW 2.5 to HW3 after cars were delivered. That hardware didn't deliver the specs needed for their planned FSD - they updated the HW. It's what a responsible company does. Especially for an $80K to $90K truck.

 

[sotek2345]

There could be huge advantage to Ford to upgrade that APIM for 20K trucks. It might cost a few million, but it saves development for 2 different platforms. Now you can scare me like I'm afraid Ford might do and hang the 2022's out to drive and not continue to develop the software and add some features. If the new APIM/OS (Android) are in several model years any features they update or add for a few years will be backward compatible for all except 2022. So even if Ford were to split the cost or do it at cost, It would favor everyone for them to update the 2022's. I know I'm pushing my luck here.

To further what @beatle also noted about Tesla - they upgrade thousands of Model 3's from HW 2.5 to HW3 after cars were delivered. That hardware didn't deliver the specs needed for their planned FSD - they updated the HW. It's what a responsible company does. Especially for an $80K to $90K truck.

I strongly suspect that Sync upgrades via OTA will be minimal for the 2022 truck for exactly the reasons you cite. The only reason we would get any is that it is in more vehicles than the Lightning and Ford won't switch them all to Android Automotive at once. Heck, the Maverick is still shipping with Sync 3!

 

[GDN]

I strongly suspect that Sync upgrades via OTA will be minimal for the 2022 truck for exactly the reasons you cite. The only reason we would get any is that it is in more vehicles than the Lightning and Ford won't switch them all to Android Automotive at once. Heck, the Maverick is still shipping with Sync 3!

Just because this old APIM is in other vehicles our software already has so many other features, I truly believe 2022 Lightning is an island. Our software will be like no others. It may not happen, but I expect Ford to keep my '22 with equal feature sets of subsequent models until such time the new design and new factory go online in 3 or 4 years. Of course truly my goal will to be in a Cybertruck by then.

 

[Mr. Flibble]

There could be huge advantage to Ford to upgrade that APIM for 20K trucks. It might cost a few million, but it saves development for 2 different platforms. Now you can scare me like I'm afraid Ford might do and hang the 2022's out to dry and not continue to develop the software and add some features. If the new APIM/OS (Android) are in several model years any features they update or add for a few years will be backward compatible for all except 2022. So even if Ford were to split the cost or do it at cost, It would favor everyone for them to update the 2022's. I know I'm pushing my luck here.

To further what @beatle also noted about Tesla - they upgrade thousands of Model 3's from HW 2.5 to HW3 after cars were delivered. That hardware didn't deliver the specs needed for their planned FSD - they updated the HW. It's what a responsible company does. Especially for an $80K to $90K truck.

As someone who works a lot with developers, I assure you that developing OTA updates for the QNX platform that will run Sync 4 probably won't be all that costly. They will simply feature-freeze the platform, and keep a few devs on board to ensure patches and compliance updates are possible to roll out. That is much less expensive than swapping the hardware, plus they probably still get QNX support in a contract.

I would not label Tesla as a responsible company for that action - they did it to gather more data because FSD is 10 years behind the promised schedule. Right now, with vertical integration, and a high stock price that functions as an acceptable backstop for large loans, they can afford to spend extra $$$ on things like this.

When TSLA adjusts to a more normalized P/E ratio, you will see the company start cutting back on things like this a lot. It is a common pattern in the tech world, that companies that are still trying to grow throw a lot more at a problem compared to long established companies. That transition to a non-growth model is usually painful.

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