Working Pro Power using Generator Lockout Kit to Feed the Whole Panel

[Maquis]

Interesting, but you would have to touch both, which doesn't seem to be easy if you have a cable connecting and providing power. Not to say you couldn't do it, but it would be kind of difficult if you were parked on your driveway and the ground for the panel was on the side of the house driven into the ground. Am I correct in this thinking? My background is not electricity, so I have no issues sounding dumb.

Basically correct. If you were barefoot on wet pavement, you could feel a shock touching the truck. Depends on a lot of factors.

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[Henry Ford]

To add…the reason that the truck chassis could be at some voltage potential relative to ground is due to voltage drop on the neutral wire between the truck and your panel. So you could feel a shock if you touched the truck and your home’s ground point. It’s not going to be much, but you could feel it, and yes, it will trip the GFCI. Everything from your panel, downstream into your home is no different than running on utility power.

I discovered this phenomenon while playing guitar and singing (both poorly) into a microphone that was attached to an old ungrounded amp. The circuit was completed through me when my lips touched the metal mic at the same time my fingers were touching the guitar strings. In my case there was no GFCI to protect me.

Basically correct. If you were barefoot on wet pavement, you could feel a shock touching the truck. Depends on a lot of factors.

I think a more likely scenario would be touching some metal object that is plugged into your house while touching your truck. I don't know what that object would be but it didn't occur to me that I would electrocute myself playing Sweet Home Alabama either.

 

[dww]

I discovered this phenomenon while playing guitar and singing (both poorly) into a microphone that was attached to an old ungrounded amp. The circuit was completed through me when my lips touched the metal mic at the same time my fingers were touching the guitar strings. In my case there was no GFCI to protect me.



I think a more likely scenario would be touching some metal object that is plugged into your house while touching your truck. I don't know what that object would be but it didn't occur to me that I would electrocute myself playing Sweet Home Alabama either.

Wouldn’t it be if you were touching a grounded metal box/appliance/tool connected on your house plugs (that was not separately GFCI protected) and also touched the truck while you were using the truck as a generator. You would be two unconnected grounds that were bonded to two unconnected neutrals. I have a garage plug next to the truck that when using Pro Power could be such a plug.

 

[Maquis]

I discovered this phenomenon while playing guitar and singing (both poorly) into a microphone that was attached to an old ungrounded amp. The circuit was completed through me when my lips touched the metal mic at the same time my fingers were touching the guitar strings. In my case there was no GFCI to protect me.



I think a more likely scenario would be touching some metal object that is plugged into your house while touching your truck. I don't know what that object would be but it didn't occur to me that I would electrocute myself playing Sweet Home Alabama either.

I used to do a lot work on old guitar amps. They had a circuit that connected the chassis to one of the incoming power lines and a switch to alternate which incoming line went to chassis. No polarized plugs or equipment grounds in those days. If the switch was in the wrong position, the hot line ended up connected to chassis and hence the guitar strings. A microphone plugged in to a properly grounded PA results in what you experienced. I’ve seen a lot of guitar players get zapped like that.

In most cases, I can’t see something plugged into the house in the vicinity of the truck. Especially if you’re only powering necessary loads. If I needed to run a tool or something near the truck, I’d just plug in directly to ProPower. But you’re right, it could happen.

 

[Henry Ford]

Wouldn’t it be if you were touching a grounded metal box/appliance/tool connected on your house plugs (that was not separately GFCI protected) and also touched the truck while you were using the truck as a generator. You would be two unconnected grounds that were bonded to two unconnected neutrals. I have a garage plug next to the truck that when using Pro Power could be such a plug.

Exactly. I was thinking a vacuum cleaner or power tool but most everything these days is made of plastic and/or battery powered. In reality, the odds of electrocuting someone with an ungrounded power inlet box is pretty low. It's not zero though.

 

[EVpower]

Consider the situation if a Lightning or portable generator with a neutral to chassis bond, and no ground connection is feeding a 120/240 panel with the neutral to earth connection. Should the generator source neutral to panel connection become open, the truck/generator chassis would become hot to earth from 120 to up to 240 volts depending on the total load resistances on each line leg. Additionally, high line voltage would be applied to some of the 120-volt loads.

Steve

 

[Danface]

Consider the situation if a Lightning or portable generator with a neutral to chassis bond, and no ground connection is feeding a 120/240 panel with the neutral to earth connection. Should the generator source neutral to panel connection become open, the truck/generator chassis would become hot to earth from 120 to up to 240 volts depending on the total load resistances on each line leg. Additionally, high line voltage would be applied to some of the 120-volt loads.

Steve

Question, the truck has GFCI built in, wouldn't that trip if chassis went to ground (by say trying to passing through a human)?

 

[EVpower]

Replying to @Danface, The Lightning/generator GFCI would see equal currents through its current transformer so it would not trip. (L1, L2, & N)

Steve

 

[FloridaMan655321]

Replying to @Danface, The Lightning/generator GFCI would see equal currents through its current transformer so it would not trip. (L1, L2, & N)

Steve

Can you explain how exactly you could do this? Not that I *want* to electrocute myself, just trying to understand

 

[hturnerfamily]

a similar phenomenon within the RVing community is called 'hot skin', where you camper's metal exterior, or frame, can give you a 'buzz' in certain situations, and most likely while you are standing on wet or moist ground. This can happen, most typically, because the Camper's wiring, or plug, or even the 30amp 120v outlet, itself, with a missing or loose Ground, etc.

It's 120v power, most commonly, and not a necessary 'shock' hazard, as it's effects are more like a 'buzz' that you definitely feel, but sometimes are not sure if you actually felt it from the camper, or if you had just had a 'feeling' for some other reason. Within the camper, you notice absolutely NOTHING, and everything works perfectly. It's only the exterior metal points that can provide the effect.

I remember years and years ago while very young, and walking with my friends to the downtown area, and wanting to cut thru a field for a short cut. We KNEW there was an electric fence to cross, but we were also young and bulletproof. The first friend got over/thru the fence wires with no effects, but I was not so 'lucky' - WOW! that Smarts!! It will certainly let you know it's THERE, for sure, but, no, it's not going to kill you.

These questions about the grounding, or removing the ground from the truck's output, are concerning and fearful for many who don't understand electricity, or, frankly, are too scared to. Some of us are more brave, or, better put, less concerned about 'life' problems and know that the likely outcome of any type of deadly or shocking situation is, well, no more prevalent than the typical household outlet's potential for 'shock' that we brush by on an everyday basis in our homes.

 

[EVpower]

I've attached a drawing I had done to illustrate the current path which exists when a portable generator with a GFCI is connected to an electrical panel and the neutral conductor is open. The circuit is the same with Lightning Pro Power On Board bed outlets, with no ground connection.

From the 120-volt source current flows through the sum of all the connected loads in the panel, through the neutral to ground connection in the panel to earth ground. It would then flow through ground contact with a person touching the vehicle metal frame back to the current source.

Ground Fault protection would not be activated because the sum of all the currents in and out through the current transformer are equal.

Steve

 

[FloridaMan655321]

I've attached a drawing I had done to illustrate the current path which exists when a portable generator with a GFCI is connected to an electrical panel and the neutral conductor is open. The circuit is the same with Lightning Pro Power On Board bed outlets, with no ground connection.

From the 120-volt source current flows through the sum of all the connected loads in the panel, through the neutral to ground connection in the panel to earth ground. It would then flow through ground contact with a person touching the vehicle metal frame back to the current source.

Ground Fault protection would not be activated because the sum of all the currents in and out through the current transformer are equal.

Steve

So am I misunderstanding that the ground coming back to the panel would actually take the path to the ground from the panel? So wouldn't it be just if there was any extra needing to go from the panel to the truck? If so, this seems like it would be very very minimal as the panels ground and neutral points would take care of most of it?

 

[Runaway Tractor]

The neutral should NEVER be open. Ever.

The method needed to use the Pro Power (or any GFCI protected portable generator) without tripping the GFCI is to disconnect the GROUND pin in the inlet box or house end of the cord. Both hots and the neutral must be connected.

The truck's GFCI will continue to protect the the truck and the cord. The house panel and breakers will protect everything on the house side.

 

[EVpower]

I posted the drawing in post #101 to show the shock hazard should the neutral connection become disconnected (failed) from an ungrounded power source.

The attached photo shows an L14-30 plug which went open due to rough handling. Although this failure was on a line connection, the open circuit could have just as easily been on the neutral pin. Prior work experience, and this failure prompted my "Show some love to your L-14 Plugs" post on this forum.

Steve

 

[Danface]

The neutral should NEVER be open. Ever.

The method needed to use the Pro Power (or any GFCI protected portable generator) without tripping the GFCI is to disconnect the GROUND pin in the inlet box or house end of the cord. Both hots and the neutral must be connected.

The truck's GFCI will continue to protect the the truck and the cord. The house panel and breakers will protect everything on the house side.

The neutral is connected, the ground from the main panel is not. All current on the hot legs is returning to the earth via the main panel

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