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rdr854

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Correct in most cases, and permit trails (where required) help to identify what was in effect at the time. The one exception - in some jurisdictions - is where unpermitted work was done. Let's say that 20 years ago someone added a circuit to the home but never pulled a permit, and it doesn't match current code - some AHJ's can require the addition to be ripped out, or brought up to current code.

Now - in my county, electrical permits are not required... and in the county east of mine, they still don't use building permits. It's rather difficult to enforce anything here, but insurance companies can still try.
My County is very strict. Permits would be required along with inspections. And, unlike some surrounding jurisdictions, load calculations are required before the permit can be issued. Finally, the contractor must have a state contractors license and a county business license.
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FlasherZ

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Off topic:

Can you backfeed with the lightning?

I'f I installed an interlock could I run a cable from my bed to a designated plug?
There's no reason you shouldn't be able to with a properly installed inlet & interlock, provided you manage the loads to avoid overloading.
 

Ruination

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There's no reason you shouldn't be able to with a properly installed inlet & interlock, provided you manage the loads to avoid overloading.

Thanks, that's also what I thought....but I think I read the powerboost was having issues doing it.

I know the the lightning is a completely different animal though.
 

FlasherZ

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My County is very strict. Permits would be required along with inspections. And, unlike some surrounding jurisdictions, load calculations are required before the permit can be issued. Finally, the contractor must have a state contractors license and a county business license.
Illinois doesn't license electricians here, but they do require you have a license to call a BINGO game or cut someone's hair, go figure. Municipalities and counties are afforded the ability to set licensing and inspection requirements. In the county to the west of me, the inspection system is usually a corrupt collection of former contractors who will do everything in their power to steer work toward their friends. In my county, it's typically a "make sure it won't burn things down" view.

We haven't even gotten into the "which code" arguments yet -- the 2017 & 2020 code cycles brought some pretty onerous requirements for solar PV and EV charging, once the manufacturers saw they could have their products required in all new garages! My county still sits on the 2014 code.

I think we've gotten off-topic, so I'll reel it back in now.
 

pstansel

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Thanks, that's also what I thought....but I think I read the powerboost was having issues doing it.
Yes but it has to do with the neutral I believe and can be resolved if your interconnect is wired correctly.
 

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jefro

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I'd think that without the Pro charger in the equation that the gas and ev model's power out of bed would be used in a similar manner. The gas model would have to be away from house as it can automatically start up.
 

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If you heard someone say the slower charging was easier/better on the battery they were referring to L2 is better than L3 (also known as DCFC) and that is correct.

However, all L2 home chargers are about the same. Charging at 48 amps isn't really any better/worse than 80 amps. It is all just about the same down in that range. The difference that matters is L2 is easier on the battery than L3.

Having said there is also research and there are charging sweetspots for being less wasteful of electricity. I believe the 110 is more wasteful than 240. There is a sweetspot somewhere in the 240 charging world that used more of the electricity vs being wasteful and losing more to heat, etc.
this is crazy and just plain wrong. Heat is the enemy of batteries. My Tesla charges far cooler at 20 amps than at 48 or 60 or 80 amps on Level 2 charging. I only use the higher amp settings when I need to go back out quickly after plugging in at home. For overnight charging I always set it for slower, lower amp charging to protect battery life. This is unquestionably better for the battery.
 

adoublee

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this is crazy and just plain wrong. Heat is the enemy of batteries. My Tesla charges far cooler at 20 amps than at 48 or 60 or 80 amps on Level 2 charging. I only use the higher amp settings when I need to go back out quickly after plugging in at home. For overnight charging I always set it for slower, lower amp charging to protect battery life. This is unquestionably better for the battery.
Lack of heat (freezing) is worse for charging batteries than heat.
 

beatle

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this is crazy and just plain wrong. Heat is the enemy of batteries. My Tesla charges far cooler at 20 amps than at 48 or 60 or 80 amps on Level 2 charging. I only use the higher amp settings when I need to go back out quickly after plugging in at home. For overnight charging I always set it for slower, lower amp charging to protect battery life. This is unquestionably better for the battery.
L2 charging is so slow that it's inconsequential to battery life. Besides, the coolant pump will run above something like 76% SOC and 85F to take care of your battery. Charge and don't worry.

Lack of heat (freezing) is worse for charging batteries than heat.
Cold batteries have more internal resistance, but they are happier to be stored at low temperatures than high, though extremes of either side are to be avoided.
 
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GDN

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this is crazy and just plain wrong. Heat is the enemy of batteries. My Tesla charges far cooler at 20 amps than at 48 or 60 or 80 amps on Level 2 charging. I only use the higher amp settings when I need to go back out quickly after plugging in at home. For overnight charging I always set it for slower, lower amp charging to protect battery life. This is unquestionably better for the battery.
Believe what you want, but anything you can do at home is all in the same boat - there is very little more heat between the 24 to 60 amp charging. No where near enough to make a change or do damage to the battery. You need some heat for proper efficient charging. The slower you charge you waste more in inefficient energy usage. You likely waste more energy than you could ever do damage to your battery.

It is the consistent L3 charging that will cause you some long term degradation to your battery.

You do you though.
 

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PungoteagueDave

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Lack of heat (freezing) is worse for charging batteries than heat.
Nope. Cold does not damage the battery, just delays its charging while the battery heats up to the required level to take a charge. But excessive heat during charging, or repeated fast charging, which generates more heat than slower charging, does reduce battery life. Batteries actually prefer cold storage for long periods. I once sat in my earliest Tesla Model S (vin 1,609) at a ski resort in Maine attached to a level 2 charger, watching my state of charge go backwards in minus 10 degrees F temps, on the phone with Tesla, who were also watching in real time, while the battery spent two hours getting up to warm enough temps to begin taking a charge. That was a long day and hard lesson learned.
 

PungoteagueDave

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L2 charging is so slow that it's inconsequential to battery life. Besides, the coolant pump will run above something like 76% SOC and 85F to take care of your battery. Charge and don't worry.



Cold batteries have more internal resistance, but they are happier to be stored at low temperatures than high, though extremes of either side are to be avoided.
Nope, I have 80-amp level 2 at one of my homes (current Tesla HPWCs are limited to 48 amps, but the first gen Tesla high power wall chargers went as high as 80). The cable gets soft to the point of near melting and the car's battery cooling system runs full blast, leaving huge pools of condensate on my garage floor. It sounds like a 737 taking off at max charging rate in my garage, which is rare, only when we're doing a quick turn-around. Level 2 charging can definitely impact battery life at higher amps.

Your second comment is dead on. Cold does not damage batteries unless they freeze. Most (all?) EVs include tech to preclude that event.
 
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PungoteagueDave

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Believe what you want, but anything you can do at home is all in the same boat - there is very little more heat between the 24 to 60 amp charging. No where near enough to make a change or do damage to the battery. You need some heat for proper efficient charging. The slower you charge you waste more in inefficient energy usage. You likely waste more energy than you could ever do damage to your battery.

It is the consistent L3 charging that will cause you some long term degradation to your battery.

You do you though.
Neither of us is a battery expert. I am basing my comments on two things, ownership of four Teslas, from an early 2012, through a current MX, and seeing the degradation (mostly lack thereof) in my cars vs others with more cavalier charging habits, and second, Elon Musk's statements about level 2 charging and speed, as well as recommended storage levels - he specifically said that charging slower is better due to lower heat, and maintaining at 60% (instead of the default 90%) increases battery life. Another data point is the most recent Apple charging algorithms for the latest Macbook Pros, which allow SOC to drop without recharging, based on its analysis of user habits, and then charges slowly, not using the full amps available from the newest big brick chargers that come with the computers, to a level below 100%. Their explanation for why they do this is that gentler charging, at lower amps and heat, with less use of lithium battery extremes (zero SOC or 100% SOC) has proven to increase battery life, so they've figured out how to maximize this in the latest algorithms. Now, if you want the latest Apple laptop to show 100% SOC or to charge at the max available rate, you need to over-ride the default battery settings. If that's true for small lithium ion batteries, there's no reason it isn't true for an EV. And Elon said it, so I beleive it anyway. :cool:
 

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@PungoteagueDave, people argued the efficiency claim with me for over a week before I finally just dropped it completely. While I'm not a "battery expert" I have built EVSEs and have seen the efficiency numbers on the components--the differences between 120v vs. 240v are not enough to bother doing the calculations...although I did invite anyone making that claim to post their calculations; none did.

I posted then that the so-called "efficiency" differences were mis-attributed losses that occur while sub-systems are "on." As you know, when charging an EV the vehicle is pretty much on while sitting idle. The brains, the componentry, etc. all have some level of parasitic draw. When something is charging for double-digit hours vs. single-digit hours those parasitic draws can add up.

That said, I find it humorous that the rebuttal to charging slower has now become that a faster charge generating too much heat can be mitigated by the coolant system. It's true, but it's silly because the coolant system is going to suck up enormous amounts of juice compared to either the parasitic losses or the 1-2% difference in efficiency between charging at 120v vs. 240v that was the source of so much agitation over my earlier comments.
 

VTbuckeye

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@PungoteagueDave, people argued the efficiency claim with me for over a week before I finally just dropped it completely. While I'm not a "battery expert" I have built EVSEs and have seen the efficiency numbers on the components--the differences between 120v vs. 240v are not enough to bother doing the calculations...although I did invite anyone making that claim to post their calculations; none did.

I posted then that the so-called "efficiency" differences were mis-attributed losses that occur while sub-systems are "on." As you know, when charging an EV the vehicle is pretty much on while sitting idle. The brains, the componentry, etc. all have some level of parasitic draw. When something is charging for double-digit hours vs. single-digit hours those parasitic draws can add up.

That said, I find it humorous that the rebuttal to charging slower has now become that a faster charge generating too much heat can be mitigated by the coolant system. It's true, but it's silly because the coolant system is going to suck up enormous amounts of juice compared to either the parasitic losses or the 1-2% difference in efficiency between charging at 120v vs. 240v that was the source of so much agitation over my earlier comments.
When it is 68 degrees where the car is charging it may not make a big difference whether it takes 10 hours to put in 14kwh (120v x 12 amp) or 2 ish hours to put in 14kwh (240x30amp). When it is 5F the 120 x12 amp may not even increase the state of charge due to battery heating. It is the other factors that play a role in charging efficiency not just the 120 vs 240v. Another way to look at it is 120x12 amp is probably equally efficient as 240x6amp. The increased charging efficiency happens because if the shorter charging times. 240x30 amp is probably not much better than 240x40amp.
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