Tesla opening superchargers to non-tesla vehicles in the US

[beatle]

I looked at your del mar situation and I already have a strategy on how to charge there despite your royal farms issue. Don't really anticipate major issues. Still puzzled why folks go to a station that is reported as broken and then complain it is broken!!

I used ABRP to plan a round trip from my home in Springfield to Assateague and back in a Lariat ER, and I had to continually exclude ChargePoint chargers at Royal Farms that were no longer functioning. I gave up after manually excluding half a dozen of them. What's more, Ford's navigation treats them as online and will route you to them. Even ABRP does not recognize these stations as being offline. This planning requires someone to view both the charger suggested by ABRP and then check Plugshare to see if it's actually functioning. That's a real hassle, especially if there are multiple "mirage" charging stations. Many new EV owners will not even go through this research process as they will just trust one app or tool to guide them.

Sponsored

 

[greenne]

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger/

This is at the bottom of that page:

Plugshare also shows very few "coming soon" 120+kw CCS stations. I can't find much data on the other providers like ChargePoint and EVGO. Much like EA's posted plans, like automakers moving to EVs, a lot of companies are quick to say what they "plan" to do in order to gain the public's faith and ensure future funding, and then they don't actually do the hard work to maintain that faith. What's wrong with putting out a map of coming soon stations like Tesla does every year?

I couldn't find anything useful in that article except this quote. "Superchargers excel in many important areas. It’s actually a little boring to test Supercharger stations because you just plug them in, and they reliably work.” It sounded like the article was a roundabout way of trying to justify a higher rating for other charging networks with arbitrary weighted scores for different aspects of a charging experience. Really, charging should be as boring as filling up with gasoline. The fact that there are articles and studies about its experience is telling that it's not so good.

That said, it's true that the supercharger network is not flawless either. Of the 46 times I've supercharged my car, I've had two failures where I needed to move my car to another charger. Since the experience is so seamless, I plugged in, walked away for lunch, and came back to an error saying that the charger was broken. That was not a good experience. Fortunately there were plenty of other chargers available. There are also often notable waits to charge at superchargers on the west coast, though I haven't experienced that myself. Without more CCS infrastructure though, we'll soon experience that as well once more CCS vehicles get on the road.

I am critical of the CCS charging infrastructure right now because it is crucial to having a good EV experience, and it's not all that great right now. I am also critical of Tesla's business tactics (taking features away post-purchase), slow/poor/expensive service, and their strong anti-right-to-repair stance. At the end of the day I voted with my wallet and bought a Ford. I knew I would be giving up the supercharger network, but I think the CCS charging infrastructure has a better chance of improving than Tesla having a change of heart at this point.

Comparing "coming soon" identification on a website is not really a good indicator of growth. It also has no timescale associated with it...so the bold claim that EA is growing only 10% in a year is NOT supported by the facts given. In other words, you just made that up on the fly.

I DO happen to agree with you that under most circumstances the Tesla Supercharger is a premium experience in reliability. The EA network still has quality control issues, no doubt. It will need to get better. I also welcome the opportunity to use the Tesla Superchargers..if nothing else as reliable backup to EA.

I am singling out EA because I see mostly EA CCS on the East Coast..in my travels they seem to have the most DCFC in the locations I travel.

Does EA have issues..a BIG yes. Do they need to improve..YES. Is it all doom, gloom, Tesla has all the answers..NO.

Lets not forget.. Tesla only has to deal with Tesla and billing can be done thru known user contacts.. Tesla. EA has to deal with compatability issues(both biling and technical) thru Ford, GM, VW, Kia, Hyundai, etc. It is a challenge for sure. Also I'm sure Tesla funds its chargers thru vehicles sales...EA doesn't have that type of funding.

Bottom Line-- EA is undergoing huge expansion and seems to be getting better every day. Its like the chicken and egg problem..as more people use chargers(demand) the number of chargers and locations will grow.

PS-- I do worry about CCS chargers filling up over the next 1-2 yrs if EA doesn't get its act together. I hope as they get more station revenue they realize they need to invest that heavily in more stations in more locations.

 

[sotek2345]

We actually just hit our first situation where taking a planned trip (to Bangor Maine) would be very challenging in our Mach-e. No hotels offer charging in the area, and there is only 1 DC fast charge location in the city and surrounding area - at a Honda/Nissan dealership. Next closest charger is ~55 miles away. If we are allowed to use that dealership charger (Plugshare reviews are mixed on that point), we could technically make the trip, but that just feels like a major hassle and risk. First time we are making the call to use our ICE vehicle since we got the Mach-e.

If we had access to the Tesla network, we would have several other options.

Let's hope the networks keeps expanding.

 

[GDN]

Comparing "coming soon" identification on a website is not really a good indicator of growth. It also has no timescale associated with it...so the bold claim that EA is growing only 10% in a year is NOT supported by the facts given. In other words, you just made that up on the fly.

I DO happen to agree with you that under most circumstances the Tesla Supercharger is a premium experience in reliability. The EA network still has quality control issues, no doubt. It will need to get better. I also welcome the opportunity to use the Tesla Superchargers..if nothing else as reliable backup to EA.

I am singling out EA because I see mostly EA CCS on the East Coast..in my travels they seem to have the most DCFC in the locations I travel.

Does EA have issues..a BIG yes. Do they need to improve..YES. Is it all doom, gloom, Tesla has all the answers..NO.

Lets not forget.. Tesla only has to deal with Tesla and billing can be done thru known user contacts.. Tesla. EA has to deal with compatability issues(both biling and technical) thru Ford, GM, VW, Kia, Hyundai, etc. It is a challenge for sure. Also I'm sure Tesla funds its chargers thru vehicles sales...EA doesn't have that type of funding.

Bottom Line-- EA is undergoing huge expansion and seems to be getting better every day. Its like the chicken and egg problem..as more people use chargers(demand) the number of chargers and locations will grow.

You were headed down the right road , then you talk of EA and billing and funding. Credit Cards? Who has problems taking cc's for payment these days. It can be that simple. If they want to go for the seamless experience then create the API for the car manufactures, those also run for billions of people every day. This isn't hard - companies do this in their sleep daily.

And for funding not having a car company - no lets try $5B because VW was cheating. They have the funds, but most likely more have been squandered vs building stations. Overall it is a joke, that we have to hope and pray improves very quickly.

 

[greenne]

We actually just hit our first situation where taking a planned trip (to Bangor Maine) would be very challenging in our Mach-e. No hotels offer charging in the area, and there is only 1 DC fast charge location in the city and surrounding area - at a Honda/Nissan dealership. Next closest charger is ~55 miles away. If we are allowed to use that dealership charger (Plugshare reviews are mixed on that point), we could technically make the trip, but that just feels like a major hassle and risk. First time we are making the call to use our ICE vehicle since we got the Mach-e.

If we had access to the Tesla network, we would have several other options.

Let's hope the networks keeps expanding.

Out of principle I would choose EA(or other CCS) instead of Tesla whenever it was possible, but nice to have the superchargers as backup

 

[greenne]

You were headed down the right road , then you talk of EA and billing and funding. Credit Cards? Who has problems taking cc's for payment these days. It can be that simple. If they want to go for the seamless experience then create the API for the car manufactures, those also run for billions of people every day. This isn't hard - companies do this in their sleep daily.

And for funding not having a car company - no lets try $5B because VW was cheating. They have the funds, but most likely more have been squandered vs building stations. Overall it is a joke, that we have to hope and pray improves very quickly.

I see various issues of people trying to use the app and get the discount. Is there any reason why(other than discount) you can't just start the charger at the charger with a credit card? Pay on the kiosk?

I haven't seen that as a noted problem. The issues I see revolve around trying to start the charger with the EA app on phones.

Lets not forget the billions in Loans lord Elon has gotten over the years...
Elon Musk Says He's Anti-Subsidy, but Has Gotten Billions of Dollars (businessinsider.com)

My point was Elon could roll the supercharger into the capital costs of vehicle production because he made them exclusive to Tesla. He offered free supercharging(initially) as perk of choosing as Tesla over anything else. It was a brilliant sales tactic.

EA(or other CCS) couldn't do that.

 

[Amps]

I looked at your del mar situation and I already have a strategy on how to charge there despite your royal farms issue. Don't really anticipate major issues. Still puzzled why folks go to a station that is reported as broken and then complain it is broken!!

Maybe I should have said the Eastern Shore of Virginia a/k/a the Delmarva Peninsula is a CCS charging desert.

How about revealing your strategy for a round trip from Virginia Beach to Wallops Island Flight Facility for a rocket launch in a Lariat SR? Those 18 miles of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel are going to be white knuckle. Now, try it in a Tesla SR. Open up the Tesla SC in Exmore to CCS and I'm there. Until then, CCS stays home.

No Level 2 bed and breakfasts, no Harley dealers (broken ChargePoints on both ends), no campground 14-50s–I've got work to do. The closest Level 3s that are out-of-the-way on each end (Royal Farms and EVgo) are broken.

 

[Theo1000]

This planning requires someone to view both the charger suggested by ABRP and then check Plugshare to see if it's actually functioning. That's a real hassle....

Very few who actually drive CCS vehicles use the in vehicle charger locator. This is true for all of them including Ford. Use either Plugshare or ABRP … ….AND do your due diligence and check the status of the stations. This is just the nature of the CCS network currently.

Yet folks like me put 1000’s of miles on our trucks with no issues here in the MW, the land of EV fee’s and resistance. There are gaps. For instance if you lived in WV and intended to drive longer distance, I would strongly urge you NOT to buy the lightning. Same for Arkansas or Montana or SE Missouri. There are parts of rural Western Kansas & Colorado that I have to careful around. Yet I have driven there this past weekend, double triple checked and have plan B & plan C. And put almost 750 miles on the truck. Compared to that your del mar is a breeze. No sweat. The entire thing is 50 miles E-W & 100 miles N-S. About the size of my greater metro . No sure what the complaints are, or are these first world problems.

The CCS business model is not profitable yet. Its getting close from what I hear but not profitable yet. It is actually impressive how much charging has been put in considering this.

Always puzzled by these folks looking at a non-TSLA shareholder cash burning network and complaining it not like TSLA. Um! Duh!

 

[Theo1000]

How about revealing your strategy for a round trip from Virginia Beach to Wallops Island Flight Facility for a rocket launch in a Lariat SR?

You are kidding right. Thats 99 miles! I just did a trip with 272 miles between charges.

Drive slower, know what you are doing....

Honestly baffled by these posts.

 

[beatle]

The CCS business model is not profitable yet. Its getting close from what I hear but not profitable yet. It is actually impressive how much charging has been put in considering this.

Always puzzled by these folks looking at a non-TSLA shareholder cash burning network and complaining it not like TSLA. Um! Duh!

EA was pretty well funded by Dieselgate, but the lack of station upkeep shows that it is lacking in sustainment funding.

As for it not being profitable, I agree. I have actually said a couple times that they could charge a lot more per kwh/minute and people would still pay it. At this point most people charge at home. On a per-kwh basis I charge homeCFC at a rate of 10:1. It's similar to eating at a restaurant is more expensive than buying groceries and making food at home, but you're paying for the convenience of being able to charge hundreds of miles from home - and that's worth something.

 

[greenne]

You are kidding right. Thats 99 miles! I just did a trip with 272 miles between charges.

Drive slower, know what you are doing....

Honestly baffled by these posts.

Tbh the poster had a SR truck so 99mi each way would be a stretch.

But then I have to question you would buy a SR truck with a 230mi range given the intended travel area....

 

[greenne]

EA was pretty well funded by Dieselgate, but the lack of station upkeep shows that it is lacking in sustainment funding.

As for it not being profitable, I agree. I have actually said a couple times that they could charge a lot more per kwh/minute and people would still pay it. At this point most people charge at home. On a per-kwh basis I charge homeCFC at a rate of 10:1. It's similar to eating at a restaurant is more expensive than buying groceries and making food at home, but you're paying for the convenience of being able to charge hundreds of miles from home - and that's worth something.

Not only that, but in order to have a "network" you would have to supply at least a few chargers in rural areas where demand is not high enough..yet. I imagine stations along the east coast make plenty of money, stations in the midwest probably lose lots of money.

 

[GDN]

I don't know their model and if or when they will be profitable, but Francis Energy has placed chargers in OK about every 50 miles, even for small towns. I've taken issue with them to some degree as many of their chargers are only 50kW, but they say they are already working to upgrade to a minimum of 150kW. I know they can't be profitable in OK yet either, but they took government money to get started. They have to have some plan to keep it going.

In fact they are still building and growing which is what you have to do. You have to have an interest.

EA could be poised to rule the US for charging. I have nothing against them, but you must continue to support what you have built and continue to expand and build to be sustainable. They've only done what was required of them so far.

 

[Amps]

Tbh the poster had a SR truck so 99mi each way would be a stretch.

But then I have to question you would buy a SR truck with a 230mi range given the intended travel area....

I ordered a Lariat ER. I make this round trip many times a year. It's 110 miles from my home charger to Wallops. If we have equipment to carry, we take an ICE truck. If not, we rideshare in a Model 3. Both trips are at highway speeds, with a quick stop at the Tesla SC in Exmore when we're in M3.

This trip would also be fine with any variant of Lightning SR with a reliable CCS Level 3 on the Eastern Shore of Virginia. I call it a CCS charging desert. It is. Opening the Tesla SC network to CCS would make it work without an ER battery, as in the topic of this thread. The poster from Kansas City said that they, "already have a strategy on how to charge there despite your royal farms issue". I inquired about taking that trip with a Lariat SR to ask what his charging strategy is for ESVA/Delmarva Peninsula. Mine is to ride in a Tesla.

You are kidding right. Thats 99 miles! I just did a trip with 272 miles between charges.

Drive slower, know what you are doing....

Honestly baffled by these posts.

I'm honestly baffled by how you made a trip in a standard range Lightning with 272 miles between charges. The ironic thing is that I also have to drive across West Virginia a few times a year. You did acknowledge that it's a wasteland. There's an alternative route, though.

 

[FlasherZ]

It seems like if everyone could get over their obsession either for / against Elon Musk, we might actually have a productive conversation about charging networks. It's great if you have your principles, but time to leave them at the door and talk about consumer experiences.

Even though I drive Tesla vehicles, on road trips I have carried my ChaDeMo adapter since the day it was introduced. For location convenience, especially in the mid-2010's, I sometimes sought them out instead of Tesla SC's. The reality is that the experience has been horrible, and across several networks. I've experienced everything from:

* Calling the toll free support number, only to reach someone who didn't understand what a fast charger is (!!)
* "We don't have that location"... well, your phone number was right there on it! No activation capable.
* Front desk at the state park: "oh, yeah, the cord's been missing off that thing for about 3 months now, we've called them 3 times"
* App required to start charger won't run on later Android versions
* At Hershey Park, PA... 8 J1772 handles via Chargepoint, only 1 worked. Front desk: "yeah, we've called them and people complain daily".

Now, we've had our share of working chargers... I will say that my experience since 2012 has been roughly 66% working, 33% non-working for the chargers that would be the most convenient for me.

Some bonuses:

* At the St. Louis convention center, you can pay $20 to park in the parking garage or you can pay $10 (maximum fee) to use one of the two Chargepoint stations outside.
* Free up-front parking at the St. Louis Science Center and St. Louis Zoo.
* Just below the Tesla destination chargers, a couple dozen receptacles at Holiday World in Santa Claus, IN! Perfect type of place for level 2 charging!

Bottom line and reality, as much as you may hate Elon Musk and/or Tesla, is that MASSIVE improvement is needed for networks to reach Tesla's level of focus and commitment here, and consumer use cases for EV's will be suppressed if they can't rely upon charging networks.

EA is suffering major growing pains and really needs to get reliability and service up -- in addition to locations -- to enable successful EV launches.

Sponsored