Tesla opening superchargers to non-tesla vehicles in the US

[PV2EV]

Anyone know why so many EA stations are down? Is it SW, HW, or something else? Do Super Chargers fail often?

Having used ChargePoint and Blink public chargers 7 years ago, I often ran into all kinds of problems. Typically they were interface issues. New stations should have no human i interface to make them more reliable.

Sponsored

 

[FlasherZ]

Anyone know why so many EA stations are down? Is it SW, HW, or something else? Do Super Chargers fail often?

Having used ChargePoint and Blink public chargers 7 years ago, I often ran into all kinds of problems. Typically they were interface issues. New stations should have no human i interface to make them more reliable.

Lack of service network and urgency. EA is focused on new construction with its resources, and maintenance/service is suffering. I haven't seen any evidence that they offer case tracking to consumers who report trouble (or, frankly, any evidence at all they actually track outages -- see my post above).

They've also chosen technology that is far more complex, with the standalone nature of the kiosks. Instead of keeping the distributed part simple and centralizing the back-end, they've chosen to push everything out to the edge which can be a disadvantage for them. Some of it is because the ecosystem requires it (serving all manufacturers), but they could have made better choices -- NFC readers on less complicated bollards with more centralized control electronics, etc.

They built to the "pay at the gas pump" usage model and didn't think out of the box.

Superchargers do fail -- individual stalls (or, in older cases, pairs of stalls served by a dedicated cabinet) sometimes don't work, or they're derated to 60 kW max (a safety barrier for non-critical faults). However, if you call Tesla to report it, they have the ability to see what's happening and have a network of technicians who know how to get onsite within a few days to repair them. It certainly helps that they don't just build 2 or 4 stalls, they generally start with a higher number in a new install. The cars also know when chargers are out of service, avoiding them, and Tesla's latest software will redirect you to SC sites that are less loaded if queueing is likely.

 

[Theo1000]

As for it not being profitable, I agree. I have actually said a couple times that they could charge a lot more per kwh/minute and people would still pay it.

Personally I don't think charging more is wise. It has been tried before in CCS. At one point EVgo was charging over 50 cent / kwh equivalent, did not make them profitable of increase equipment availability. All kinds of models have been tried in CCS and the experiments continue to find a way to be profitable. I’m fairly confident the market place will find a way.

I can say for sure the local Sinclair/Casey folks are convinced that 125 kw 200 amp charging with shared stations is the least cost sweet spot endeavor. This has become the de facto standard in my area. I believe these folks that this is the least cost option. I think this avoids triggering demand charges and utility upgrades and keeps things cheap cheap. A couple of 125 kw stations, lightning max about 72 kw, sell me juice at 12 cents a kwh at this rate and from some conversations with managers they are close to break even pending increased usage.

EA stations even with the monthly plan approach 24 cents to 32 cents per kwh in my area. Quite expensive. Since my free kws are over, I mostly charge at local 125 kwh stations. There are a couple of per minute EA stations where the first 20 minutes or so are cheaper for me so I use those.

Focus needs to be getting and staying cheap cheap. Not price gouging.

 

[greenne]

Personally I don't think charging more is wise. It has been tried before in CCS. At one point EVgo was charging over 50 cent / kwh equivalent, did not make them profitable of increase equipment availability. All kinds of models have been tried in CCS and the experiments continue to find a way to be profitable. I’m fairly confident the market place will find a way.

I can say for sure the local Sinclair/Casey folks are convinced that 125 kw 200 amp charging with shared stations is the least cost sweet spot endeavor. This has become the de facto standard in my area. I believe these folks that this is the least cost option. I think this avoids triggering demand charges and utility upgrades and keeps things cheap cheap. A couple of 125 kw stations, lightning max about 72 kw, sell me juice at 12 cents a kwh at this rate and from some conversations with managers they are close to break even pending increased usage.

EA stations even with the monthly plan approach 24 cents to 32 cents per kwh in my area. Quite expensive. Since my free kws are over, I mostly charge at local 125 kwh stations. There are a couple of per minute EA stations where the first 20 minutes or so are cheaper for me so I use those.

Focus needs to be getting and staying cheap cheap. Not price gouging.

I'll disagree here and say the focus needs to be more locations and reliability you can depend on. If I have to pay a few cents more per KwH to get that peace of mind I'd gladly do it.

I'm betting Tesla will be more expensive than EA for non-Tesla users. I'm OK with that and gladly pay more if I had to use Tesla because EA was no available or working.

I'm also thinking EA will continue to revise their business model if demand allows it..i.e. charge a bit more with the expectation they spend that in better(more reliable) equipment). What EA had to do in a non competitive, low demand environment to survive(i.e. go on the cheap) probably won't be what they need/can do as there are more customers and those customers are making the choice between EA and say Tesla(or another CCS provider).

I also think EA will move to better dedicated locations(perhaps franchise or company owned) as demand allows vs being an afterthought in the back of Wal Mart parking lots...


This market is changing fast..just a few years ago the fastest charging EVs(outside Tesla) were Chevy Bolts and Nissan Leaf at 50kw. No one anticipated infrastructure needed to support 350kw SUVs...

 

[GDN]

Do Super Chargers fail often?

Super chargers rarely fail. There might be one or two pedestals down on occasion, but almost never do you find a whole site down. Tesla monitors them. They have full remote connectivity via LTE if all else fails. They can completely manage them remotely. If they don't detect the station off line, likely they'll have a customer within minutes calling them. The station will come back up quickly. If it is something more or a physical issue they have a network of teams that show up to work on them.

It can happen, it is technology, but they are proactive and work to keep them up and I've never encounted a non-working Supercharger in 4 years.

 

[George Bartlett]

https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/7/23198696/tesla-supercharger-non-tesla-ev-us-white-house

Pretty big deal IMO...interested to see how this will work.

I don’t think the news release is fully transparent about Tesla letting others use their fast chargers.
Tesla has been wanting the gov’t to pay them for opening up the charging network they already have established, but the gov’t is balking. The news release I read the other day made it sound like Tesla would be installing NEW fast chargers that anyone could use. Tesla would be reimbursed, just like the other charging companies. But, there would still be Tesla only fast chargers.
I know this is not what they have done in Europe or what Musk said last year, but I guess he needs extra $ to pay for the Twitter lawsuit.

 

[beatle]

Focus needs to be getting and staying cheap cheap. Not price gouging.

"Price gouging" is a bit far fetched. If your ICE vehicle gets 25mpg, with gas at $4.68/gal (current national average) it costs you just shy of $0.19/mile. Even with a Lightning getting 2mi/kwh, $0.32/kwh is still cheaper than gas - and that's a price you only pay if you're charging away from home, and for one of the least efficient EVs available. I won't make a $/mile comparison for the Raptor as we know how that story ends..

I can make pretty good coffee at home for less than 40 cents a cup. Does that mean I'll never buy coffee for $2 while out and about? I'm sure some would say "no way!" but if I need coffee on vacation or at work, I'm going to get coffee and pay the $2. It's not a big deal and I don't do it every day. I'm paying for that convenience. In the case of a charging desert, I'm not going to turn my nose up at 50 cents / kwh since I know I only need to DCFC while on a long trip.

EVs are still very expensive and are largely bought by well-off early adopters who are shouldering the initial financial cost to enjoy the experience early. Once there is critical mass and legitimate competition, prices can drop. What will really suck is if we get to critical mass with little expansion from today and everyone lines up at the 4-charger station for 2 hours.

 

[jefro]

Tesla said they wish to make money from their charging stations. I know they don't spend as much as other companies to provide the devices but expect to pay more at a Tesla station. I wouldn't bother to worry if I paid $25 or $40 to recharge.

 

[VTbuckeye]

When traveling if you need it, you need it. If they don't make enough money they won't build it and you won't have it when you need it, where you need it. Paying more than the at home charge cost while out is not unreasonable. When I drove a Chevy volt I didn't want to use gas, but it was always an option. By driving an EV I made the decision to never use gas and with that decision comes the consequence that I may have to pay a premium to charge in the community (often while traveling). I am accepting of this and hope that there will be enough DCFC available as EV adoption increases. If paying more encourages more DCFC then that is the price we will pay to make EVs viable. Tesla baked some of that cost into the car, but ccs fast charging does not have that advantage. Subsidies and fees for charging are the only way that they can make money and further build out the network.

 

[GoGoGadgetTruck]

Lack of service network and urgency. EA is focused on new construction with its resources, and maintenance/service is suffering. I haven't seen any evidence that they offer case tracking to consumers who report trouble (or, frankly, any evidence at all they actually track outages -- see my post above).

They've also chosen technology that is far more complex, with the standalone nature of the kiosks. Instead of keeping the distributed part simple and centralizing the back-end, they've chosen to push everything out to the edge which can be a disadvantage for them. Some of it is because the ecosystem requires it (serving all manufacturers), but they could have made better choices -- NFC readers on less complicated bollards with more centralized control electronics, etc.

They built to the "pay at the gas pump" usage model and didn't think out of the box.

One other historical fact for EA is that they went with multiple suppliers at start (four, if I remember correctly, but I could have that detail wrong) in the interests of ramping up quickly, and not all suppliers supplied equivalent equipment. (I am oversimplifying here.) The result is that you have different performance and experience across the network. On Mach-E forums you can find, if you look, details about what manufacturers are more "reliable" than others. (I don't DCFC enough to have those details at hand or memorized.)

In theory, the Ford in-vehicle navigation knows about availability status of DCFC stations, but it's not been very trustworthy so far. Ford says they are working on it.

Again, going off memory, one of the vendors in particular proved to be absolutely awful, and EA is swapping every single one of their units out over time, but there's obviously a big expense in doing that. I know my local EA location swapped out all four of their podiums about 18 months after putting them in. I was there on a day when they were doing the work, shopping at the store that the lot services.

 

[Rob G]

I think the biggest issue with non-Tesla networks is that DCFC is not profitable. Every time your ICE car needs fuel you MUST visit a gas station.

DCFC is something done Less frequently; road trips and long distance commutes but as we know 90+% of charging is at home. DCFC already costs 3-4x home costs but probably should be more 6-7x the home rate. I know that like sacrilege cutting into the EV savings equation. However we really need to pay a premium for convenience if you want it to exist and reliably.

Unless there is some incentive for Tesla why would they open up the network? It’s a huge advantage for their vehicles. I’ve road tripped my MS LR and my Porsche Taycan and the Tesla was markedly easier. I can only think that Tesla has figured out how to make it profitable? I would also imagine non-Teslas will pay a higher rate for charging.

I can only speak for me but I’d pay more for DCFC if it meant it would become ubiquitous and reliable.

 

[FlasherZ]

A bunch of articles yesterday on how they plan to do this... Looks like they patented an adapter mechanism in new bollard construction...

https://driveteslacanada.ca/superch...-evs-north-american-superchargers-magic-dock/

As for Ford, they've set the wheels in motion and with the political climate around EV's, they MUST be successful at it first time 'round. They may yet have to grab the bulls by the horns and wrestle it themselves if they can't convince existing DCFC providers to beef up service and maintenance.

 

[Maquis]

I don't know their model and if or when they will be profitable, but Francis Energy has placed chargers in OK about every 50 miles, even for small towns. I've taken issue with them to some degree as many of their chargers are only 50kW, but they say they are already working to upgrade to a minimum of 150kW. I know they can't be profitable in OK yet either, but they took government money to get started. They have to have some plan to keep it going.

In fact they are still building and growing which is what you have to do. You have to have an interest.

EA could be poised to rule the US for charging. I have nothing against them, but you must continue to support what you have built and continue to expand and build to be sustainable. They've only done what was required of them so far.

I’ve not looked into Francis Energy’s business model, but I agree that logistics of their deployment and reliability of their stations are both very good. I use them when I travel to Dallas and never have to worry about their reliability. Now, once I hit the Texas state line on 69, there’s nothing! I stay at a hotel with a L2 and haven’t had a problem. But they only have 1 J1772 and 1 Tesla station (the Tesla was not working the last time I was there), so I may run into availability issues in the future.

 

[GDN]

I’ve not looked into Francis Energy’s business model, but I agree that logistics of their deployment and reliability of their stations are both very good. I use them when I travel to Dallas and never have to worry about their reliability. Now, once I hit the Texas state line on 69, there’s nothing! I stay at a hotel with a L2 and haven’t had a problem. But they only have 1 J1772 and 1 Tesla station (the Tesla was not working the last time I was there), so I may run into availability issues in the future.

The whole DFW metro area has 4, and only 4 - EA chargers - and none if you are coming down 69/75. There is a new Tesla SC just as you cross into Texas, listed as Dennision, it's only about 4 miles aeros the line, so hope for that to open up in the next year or two. There is a Buccee's another 40 miles down the road, Tesla SC's announced, I don't know if they'll add any CCS or not.

If you can make it Dallas I'll lend a charge.

 

[RickLightning]

Still puzzled why folks go to a station that is reported as broken and then complain it is broken!!

There is an entire network of Hy-Vee chargers set up by Evergy (utility) in my area that will not work with both Mach-E and Lightning. Will never work. Just have to avoid stations that don't work.

Sponsored