Lightning Battery Heating

[RickLightning]

Well, his and my data is different. I didn't crunch the numbers. I was just posting what I've observed. I think his truck is in an unattached garage, mine is attached and stays warmer. My experience used less energy but it does show that it only used 26 of 48 available volts for the preconditioning cycle. That should be the target setting of people that want to maintain a minimum voltage setting, but also want to precondition.

I will say this, I'm glad I sprung for an Emporia energy management system for my FCSP. The data Ford gives you is very inadequate.

Great points. Yes, 48amps is not needed. The truck will pull juice when it needs to. What is unclear is whether it is an absolute number, or based on need. It pulled 26amps at that time. What will it pull if the temp was 20 degrees colder, 26amps for a longer period, or more amps for the same period? Keep in mind that the truck can't know how many amps it is able to pull, until it pulls it, right? It does know temp, it does know departure time.

And yes, Ford's data is lacking. I can easily see detail with my JuiceBox, including every charge session back to summer of 2021. I can see graphs of the last 6 months.

I park in the garage with an L2 32A EVSE and keep my max charge at 80% and plug in every night over the winter. During the pre-conditioning phase it almost always stays at 80%. The odd cold night that was -15C, where my garage cooled right down to just above freezing, it 'prepared for the drive' and dipped to 78% then charged for a few minutes back up to 80% and then began conditioning the cab to be warm. So basically if the battery is quite cold then it needs more than 32A to warm up, since it pulls a bit from the battery too. Also even if your departure time happens outside of your preferred charging times it will still charge back up to your desired charge level after warming the battery, which could end up costing more if you're on a time-of-use billing.

side note: I'd sure love a 'skip charging until x % reached' slider to just let it run down my battery a bit each day as I sometimes only go for short drives to nearby jobsites. I'd still stay plugged in to pre-condition for max performance / range / regen / comfort etc, but wouldn't mind keeping my battery cycle count low. constantly topping up a couple of percent every day seems unnecessary. same with the quick top up after the battery warming, they really need to let us make these decisions.

First, you don't know the 32amp definitively. You have one instance where you noticed it went below the set percentage. Could have been a fluke.

As to battery cycles, your logic is incorrect. 10 sessions adding 5% is the same as 1 session adding 50%. That is why the logic is to always be plugged in, i.e. always be charging.

Time of use is a valid point. If you don't have an intelligent charger, and you keep your vehicle plugged in, it will pull juice for departure times, remote start, and rare 15 minute hits (at least with my Mach-E) to warm the battery (a handful of times last year). To prevent this, buy an intelligent charger like the JuiceBox. I lock out my peak period (8 hours a day Monday -Friday). Should I choose, it is easy to override.

For those that use the Ford Mobile Charger, and don't buy a charger due to cost, note that many utilities offer discounts, or rebates, for buying a charger, often a specific brand and model. Mine gave me $500. Also note that there is a federal tax credit of 30% of the charger and installation cost.

My charger was around $630 for a 48amp model. $500 rebate, 30% credit on $150, net cost of $91. Or, if you don't include the rebate in your tax credit calculation, you could make money. Mine ended up being free for a different reason, and I got a $500 rebate.

Lastly, there may be programs to charge off-peak for free, or a special incentive, or to let the utility control charging at times. I get $50 twice a year to allow my utility the ability to stop charging for 2 hours during peak demand, or force charging for 2 hours during oversupply, several times a month. My JuiceBox prevents the forced charging during oversupply that occurs during peak rate periods, and 99% of the time the do not charge period occurs when I am already fully charged to 90%. I can also override either condition.

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[Pioneer74]

Yes, it's a detached garage on an exclusive service, (got my first bill yesterday for kWh accumulated from 9/30 to 11/15) and I agree the FCSP app is woefully inadequate for data geeks like us, but that's all I have to work with.

You could put an Emporia Vue2 on your FCSP feed. If you charge over 65 amp I wouldn't recommend the 50a leads. They won't be accurate. I purchased a seperate unit and used the main 200a leads for mine.

 

[TaxmanHog]

You could put an Emporia Vue2 on your FCSP feed. If you charge over 65 amp I wouldn't recommend the 50a leads. They won't be accurate. I purchased a separate unit and used the main 200a leads for mine.

This ?
https://shop.emporiaenergy.com/products/gen-2-emporia-vue-whole-home-energy-monitor

 

[Pioneer74]

This ?
https://shop.emporiaenergy.com/products/gen-2-emporia-vue-whole-home-energy-monitor

Yes. The stand-alone unit that just did the mains, like the one you linked, was unavailable when I ordered mine. I also wanted to monitor my mains and other circuits. So what I did was order 2 of the 8 circuit units. I have all 16 ports used with individual circuits on one unit, and the other main unit monitoring just my FCSP. It ended up costing roughly the same.

It was mentioned by Emporia in another thread that the 50A individual circuits could read up to 75A. I found that to be not accurate, and I want to point out that I am not faulting them for that. They are clearly labeled for 50A. I fond that anything over 60A they because unreliable. When my FCSP was set for 80A, and by my clamp-on ammeter was showing a 75A draw, the 50A sensors were only showing ~68A.

If you buy it, use the code 5%offmycart. If you put something in your cart, go through the checkout process but don't complete it, within a day they will send you that code but I found it will work from the get-go after ordering my EVSE directly from them.

 

[cjb]

So even if I have preferred charge times set it will draw enough to stay warm in my non preferred times?

I have the same question. If my departure time is outside of a preferred charging time, will the battery still precondition? Similarly, if I remote start when it's plugged in outside of a preferred time, will it use AC or the battery to warm up?

 

[TaxmanHog]

If you buy it, use the code 5%offmycart. If you put something in your cart, go through the checkout process but don't complete it, within a day they will send you that code but I found it will work from the get-go after ordering my EVSE directly from them.

Thanks, order went in with 5% discount included and free shipping!!!

 

[vandy1981]

I’ve been looking for the Ford Patent filing referenced in my https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/lightning-heater-specs.8097/post-272571 post to see if this is the design being used in the Lighting???

I don't think it's the same design as in that patent but it's hard to tell from the teardowns I've seen.

I lifted this overview from @RobbertPatrison at MachE forums

I'm guessing that this is pretty close to how the cab/battery conditioning works in the Lightnings without Max Tow and the extra compressor/evaporator.

I'm surprised that Munro didn't cover this in their overview of the thermal system (especially since they spent 5 minutes talking about how many coolant reservoirs there were), but you can make out the PTC heater at several points in the video, including here. It looks exacly like the one in the Mach-E. It's hard to tell if there's a second PTC somewhere else. It will be cool to see how it actually works once the service manuals start leaking out.

 

[Firestop]

I don't think it's the same design as in that patent but it's hard to tell from the teardowns I've seen.

I lifted this overview from @RobbertPatrison at MachE forums

I'm guessing that this is pretty close to how the cab/battery conditioning works in the Lightnings without Max Tow and the extra compressor/evaporator.

I'm surprised that Munro didn't cover this in their overview of the thermal system (especially since they spent 5 minutes talking about how many coolant reservoirs there were), but you can make out the PTC heater at several points in the video, including here. It looks exacly like the one in the Mach-E. It's hard to tell if there's a second PTC somewhere else. It will be cool to see how it actually works once the service manuals start leaking out.

Thanks for your insights…I agree with you they probably modified the engineering from the Mach-E. I too was surprised Munro didn’t cover this more in-depth….hopefully in a future segment

 

[wighty]

Keep in mind that the truck can't know how many amps it is able to pull, until it pulls it, right?

What do you mean here? The truck will know what the max amperage the EVSE can do, that's part of the CCS protocol that the charger and vehicle communicate with each other.

Thanks, order went in with 5% discount included and free shipping!!!

Ahh, I bought their refurb for $449 without a coupon now the new is $380 with that coupon! (I did get price match for $40 back).

 

[Tony Burgh]

I have the same question. If my departure time is outside of a preferred charging time, will the battery still precondition? Similarly, if I remote start when it's plugged in outside of a preferred time, will it use AC or the battery to warm up?

My preferred charge times are 10 pm to 6am. Yesterday (24°F) I set departure time of 2pm. I heard FCSP relay kick in and truck “humming” about 1 pm. My 15 mile trip got 2.1 mi/kw, about same as normal. I was plugged in from the night before and don’t have a breakout of conditioning power consumed.

 

[RickLightning]

What do you mean here? The truck will know what the max amperage the EVSE can do, that's part of the CCS protocol that the charger and vehicle communicate with each other.

People were looking at single use cases and saying "it only used 26 of 48amps" for preconditioning, and then saying that 26 amps is all that is needed.

My point was that the truck doesn't know what the charger is able to provide until it is plugged in. With J-1772, the EVSE says "I can provide ___". The truck then decides what it wants to pull. If it was colder, would it have asked for more than 26 amps? If it was warmer, would it have asked for less? If you're using a 24amp charger, will it refuse to precondition?

 

[wighty]

People were looking at single use cases and saying "it only used 26 of 48amps" for preconditioning, and then saying that 26 amps is all that is needed.

My point was that the truck doesn't know what the charger is able to provide until it is plugged in. With J-1772, the EVSE says "I can provide ___". The truck then decides what it wants to pull. If it was colder, would it have asked for more than 26 amps? If it was warmer, would it have asked for less? If you're using a 24amp charger, will it refuse to precondition?

Ah okay, yeah I agree with what you are saying

 

[LUXMAN]

So we have many new conversations about range and cold and the impact on batteries. One item I'm not sure I've seen or discussed, is what method, if any, does the Lightning heat the battery?

Early Tesla S and X had dedicated battery heaters, the 3 and Y, can generate heat from the motors (without them even turning) and direct that heat into the battery. If you tell your Tesla you are headed to a Supercharger they will add extra heating to the battery any time of the year just to speed up the charging process.

So that brings up the question - do we have any heat loops directed into the battery? From any heat source?

If one were to have an OBD reader and an app, maybe one could read battery temps and see what happens when you precondition

 

[GDN]

If one were to have an OBD reader and an app, maybe one could read battery temps and see what happens when you precondition

Ouch - you mean like Carscanner and the Wifi OBD2 reader you loaned me? I need an engineering manual to know which monitor will tell me and a co-pilot to read them while driving.

Actually there are 16 pages of setttings and I do just need to spend some time looking at them. There is more than one that might indicate some battery temp readings.

 

[chandwawar]

Yes. The stand-alone unit that just did the mains, like the one you linked, was unavailable when I ordered mine. I also wanted to monitor my mains and other circuits. So what I did was order 2 of the 8 circuit units. I have all 16 ports used with individual circuits on one unit, and the other main unit monitoring just my FCSP. It ended up costing roughly the same.

It was mentioned by Emporia in another thread that the 50A individual circuits could read up to 75A. I found that to be not accurate, and I want to point out that I am not faulting them for that. They are clearly labeled for 50A. I fond that anything over 60A they because unreliable. When my FCSP was set for 80A, and by my clamp-on ammeter was showing a 75A draw, the 50A sensors were only showing ~68A.

If you buy it, use the code 5%offmycart. If you put something in your cart, go through the checkout process but don't complete it, within a day they will send you that code but I found it will work from the get-go after ordering my EVSE directly from them.

Do you know how Emporia compares to Sense?

https://sense.com/

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