[Updated with Ford statement 2/15/23] 🛑 Lightning Stop Production / Stop Shipment Issued (due to potential battery issue)

[PungoteagueDave]

Actually, if you're using the FCSP, it is possible to derate the current flow without opening the cabinet

Below are Ford Pass steps, and my emporia vue2 readout to confirm that derating is possible.
Account--------------------Charge Station-------Settings--------------4295w / 240v ~18 amps

This presumes that FordPass will link with your FCSP and provide such control. I have owned an FCSP since August, SunRun installed it in early September, reinstalled it in November, and has had multiple techs to my house including their East Coast electrical superintendent, and three separate electrical installation teams, and no one can make the system or the app integration work. So for at least a subset of us with Lightnings and a FCSP, there is no way to derate, with vehicles well into ownership, over 12k miles, and no near term potential to do so.

 

[TaxmanHog]

This presumes that FordPass will link with your FCSP and provide such control. I have owned an FCSP since August, SunRun installed it in early September, reinstalled it in November, and has had multiple techs to my house including their East Coast electrical superintendent, and three separate electrical installation teams, and no one can make the system or the app integration work. So for at least a subset of us with Lightnings and a FCSP, there is no way to derate, with vehicles well into ownership, over 12k miles, and no near term potential to do so.

Sorry for your experience, @Ford Motor Company needs to get outlier problems like this buttoned down!

 

[PungoteagueDave]

I'm no battery expert. Perhaps I'm wrong but my impression is manufactures know that batteries should not be charged to 100% or drained to 0% since its not good for the battery. So they limit the charge or discharge themselves. What you read on display may not reflect actual. So if that is the case then charging to 100% should be fine.
My other thought is that some of these reserved cells get opened slowly over time. One of the uses is lessen the slope of degradation of battery that happens after first year. Didn't Tesla opened some cell of their cars to help during an hurricane at one point to help with range?

You make a good point, but that apparently isn’t true for Tesla and a couple other manufacturers. However, Ford is quite conservative with both its battery topping process and ramp-down on DCFC. A 100% charge for us is actually only an 89% charge because there is 14 kWh in reserve that Ford will not allow us to charge. The total battery is 145 kWh vs 131 rated that we are allowed to “see”. So when we charge to 90%, we are really charging to 118 kw, which is 84% of the total battery. So when we charge to 80%, we’re charging to roughly 105 kw, or only 74% of the battery capacity. Pretty conservative.

My issue is this: when owning a Tesla, which I did for ten years, I could charge to 100% when it was necessary, and top up while on the road without much issue or hassle, or an unreasonable amount of additional time. Tesla’s DCFC process ramp-down wasn’t so aggressively protective compared to Ford’s, so that when we were in a remote spot, with a long distance in the cold to the next charger, we could stay an hour or 90 minutes and truly leave with the battery showing 100%. That’s nearly impossible with the Lightning - it is so protective that it ramps to a trickle for the last 10%, and the last 5% is nearly impossible - it once took me an hour for that last bit. This might seem silly to even consider - why’d not just drive to the next charger? - Except in the one instance for which I actually own this truck - heavy towing - twice per year I need to tow 9,100 pounds 1,050 miles, so really need 125 miles of range, and need to get that 100% charge EVERY time I stop to charge. Ford is basically saying this is not a thing - won’t allow it in a reasonable amount of time. I believe this is far too protective, and needs to be changed, as it apparently has been in the MME.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Sorry for your experience, @Ford Motor Company needs to get outlier problems like this buttoned down!

I don’t think it is an outlier - lots of people report not being able to get FordPass linked to their charger or the HIS, just as many of us simply cannot get past 3.5.5 on our trucks.

 

[TaxmanHog]

I don’t think it is an outlier - lots of people report not being able to get FordPass linked to their charger or the HIS, just as many of us simply cannot get past 3.5.5 on our trucks.

I have no hard statistics to cite, but honestly few are buying into the HIS that I can see, so IMHO outliers for that subset.

As to FCSP alone, folks having issues configuring it, that's a fact, but eventually most get it working.

 

[jlwillia6]

Mickey AO has some great advice and is correct. There are battery testers that also do this analysis, and not just EVs, but all kinds of devices that use the similar battery technology.

- Mickey AO says 85%, but the real number is to keep your charge under 95% (from a majority of experts).

- I charge to 90%, simply because the battery capacity on our trucks in already limited to a below 100% threshold (per the capacity of the battery). Ford already does much of this work for us, and they recommend 90%, which is below experts recommended range of 95% anyways. This is splitting hairs, really.

- Slow charging is better for longevity than fast charging.

- Rarely should you go to 100%, and don't let it sit for days if you do, use it soon.

- Rarely should you go to 0% and charge it soon if you do.

- How you drive is important. accelerating like an animal degrades battery and battery life. It is okay occasionally, but it does have an impact on battery health.

Important side note: These are good to follow rules with you cell phones, tablets, and other battery driven devices. Do not charge your phone or watch overnight and leave them on the charger for that long. Charge your phone to 95% and take it off.

Does it matter how often I charge to 85% or 90%? For example, I drive not more than 20-30 miles each week day. If I’m at 85% on Monday morning, then at 75% Mon evening, should I charge back up to 85% each night? Or charge to 85% Sunday night and let it get down to maybe 20% or so by Friday evening, then charge back up to 85% for the weekend?

If I charged every night, it would go from probably 75% to 85% every night. And would only go lower than 75% on the weekends or on trips.

 

[MickeyAO]

Does it matter how often I charge to 85% or 90%? For example, I drive not more than 20-30 miles each week day. If I’m at 85% on Monday morning, then at 75% Mon evening, should I charge back up to 85% each night? Or charge to 85% Sunday night and let it get down to maybe 20% or so by Friday evening, then charge back up to 85% for the weekend?

If I charged every night, it would go from probably 75% to 85% every night. And would only go lower than 75% on the weekends or on trips.

I've seen a lot of questions on the nuances of charging, including DMs for more information, which is the reason I deleted a lot of the old posts and was reluctant to reply in this thread...I tend to give away propriety information, so I have not replied to this or other threads (I'm looking at you charging in cold weather).

I charge to 85% SOC most every day regardless of how much driving I did during the day. The times I normally don't charge are Friday and Saturday night because I don't have a set departure the next morning. So basically, I plug in for the next day's cabin departure conditions.

Is it better at the cell level to do this? NO!
Is running the pack down to 20% SOC before recharging to 90% better at the cell level? NO!
Is remaining around the 30% -50% SOC range better for the cell? Yes, but I don't do this because I want the cabin conditioned on departure, and I love the kick in the pants I get from hard accelerations, which I do a LOT.

 

[Simsonic]

Does it matter how often I charge to 85% or 90%? For example, I drive not more than 20-30 miles each week day. If I’m at 85% on Monday morning, then at 75% Mon evening, should I charge back up to 85% each night? Or charge to 85% Sunday night and let it get down to maybe 20% or so by Friday evening, then charge back up to 85% for the weekend?

If I charged every night, it would go from probably 75% to 85% every night. And would only go lower than 75% on the weekends or on trips.

Time is the most important resource we have in life. So, it depends on how much time you want to spend on continuously plugging and unplugging your truck into your charger. I certainly don't want to do it unless I really need to. I let me truck go to 30 - 50% then charge it, which is an average of once every 5 to 7 days for me. It's not statistically that big a difference to always be at 90%. As long as the battery isn't consistently less than 20% or over 95% all the other stuff is negligible.

 

[Ecstatic]

Great thread, and quite the brain trust! Thanks to all for the education and insight.

 

[Maquis]

You make a good point, but that apparently isn’t true for Tesla and a couple other manufacturers. However, Ford is quite conservative with both its battery topping process and ramp-down on DCFC. A 100% charge for us is actually only an 89% charge because there is 14 kWh in reserve that Ford will not allow us to charge. The total battery is 145 kWh vs 131 rated that we are allowed to “see”. So when we charge to 90%, we are really charging to 118 kw, which is 84% of the total battery. So when we charge to 80%, we’re charging to roughly 105 kw, or only 74% of the battery capacity. Pretty conservative.

My issue is this: when owning a Tesla, which I did for ten years, I could charge to 100% when it was necessary, and top up while on the road without much issue or hassle, or an unreasonable amount of additional time. Tesla’s DCFC process ramp-down wasn’t so aggressively protective compared to Ford’s, so that when we were in a remote spot, with a long distance in the cold to the next charger, we could stay an hour or 90 minutes and truly leave with the battery showing 100%. That’s nearly impossible with the Lightning - it is so protective that it ramps to a trickle for the last 10%, and the last 5% is nearly impossible - it once took me an hour for that last bit. This might seem silly to even consider - why’d not just drive to the next charger? - Except in the one instance for which I actually own this truck - heavy towing - twice per year I need to tow 9,100 pounds 1,050 miles, so really need 125 miles of range, and need to get that 100% charge EVERY time I stop to charge. Ford is basically saying this is not a thing - won’t allow it in a reasonable amount of time. I believe this is far too protective, and needs to be changed, as it apparently has been in the MME.

But the reserve (I believe) is split between the top and bottom. That would make charging to 100% closer to 95% of full battery capacity.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

But the reserve (I believe) is split between the top and bottom. That would make charging to 100% closer to 95% of full battery capacity.

I don’t know how that would work engineering-wise. It’s kind of like a glass of water. You fill from the bottom, not from the middle. The reserve (empty area) is always at the top.

 

[jimfigler]

I love how everyone is an expert on charging based off the same stuff everyone reads on the internet. Charge to 80%, no charge to 85% or is it 92.4%, but don't discharge below 30%, no its 20% or maybe 10%.

 

[Maquis]

I don’t know how that would work engineering-wise. It’s kind of like a glass of water. You fill from the bottom, not from the middle. The reserve (empty area) is always at the top.

I’d defer to Mickey for the definitive answer, but it’s like you never fully empty the glass.

 

[shutterbug]

Time is the most important resource we have in life. So, it depends on how much time you want to spend on continuously plugging and unplugging your truck into your charger. I certainly don't want to do it unless I really need to. I let me truck go to 30 - 50% then charge it, which is an average of once every 5 to 7 days for me. It's not statistically that big a difference to always be at 90%. As long as the battery isn't consistently less than 20% or over 95% all the other stuff is negligible.

Except no one is suggesting that you "continuously" plug in. Just once a day or so. It take about 5 sec to plug in and 5 sec to unplug. That means that you are saving less than an hour of time over the course of the year. Talk about "negligible".

 

[PungoteagueDave]

I’d defer to Mickey for the definitive answer, but it’s like you never fully empty the glass.

Yeah, I’m sure they never allow scraping the bottom of the battery, so you could be right - the 131 kw we see could be on top of, say 7 kw, and the other 7 kw sits on top of that. I guess that makes sense too. However, having run a battery to empty once in a Tesla, I was told that there was no further “reserve” at all, even for self-preservation - when it was out, it was out. Tesla will pick you up on a flatbed and take you to the nearest charger for free when you run out of juice, which in my case was a half-block to my garage - the driver was masterful at placing the car directly into the bay! Not too proud to admit the folly of trusting the Tesla range indicator, which simply lost the last 5 indicated miles in one mile and had zero excess beyond zero (unlike the presumption that most have, believing there is an extra 10 or 15 miles beyond zero - I did see that once, but don’t count on it). This was a sub-freezing situation, but taught me to never rely on the extreme limits of indicated battery unless having no choice.

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