Does NACS (Tesla) support V2H?

[intensifi]

Just wondering given all the discussion around the announcement yesterday.

I’m hoping Ford will install the NACS connector on the ”other” side so both connectors are provided. (Yes I know some character will try to use both at the same time and fry the Truck!)

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[Zprime29]

NACS does, Tesla does not (at the moment).

 

[sotek2345]

Just wondering given all the discussion around the announcement yesterday.

I’m hoping Ford will install the NACS connector on the ”other” side so both connectors are provided. (Yes I know some character will try to use both at the same time and fry the Truck!)

It doesn't support Ford's current implementation, but could support it in a different setup.

 

[RickLightning]

Just wondering given all the discussion around the announcement yesterday.

I’m hoping Ford will install the NACS connector on the ”other” side so both connectors are provided. (Yes I know some character will try to use both at the same time and fry the Truck!)

There won't be any F-150 with this. It's the "next generation" vehicles in 2025.

 

[Bills R Electric]

Just wondering given all the discussion around the announcement yesterday.

I’m hoping Ford will install the NACS connector on the ”other” side so both connectors are provided. (Yes I know some character will try to use both at the same time and fry the Truck!)

Purely a guess, but because of cost, my assumption is there will only be ONE charge port on the 2025 Gen 2 Lightning, and it will be the NACS.

Munro Live did a breakdown comparison between the NACS and current CCS charging cables yesterday and Ford will be saving money by switching to NACS. Less cables, less expensive cables, and a less expensive port.

The real question will be WHERE will the port be? Tesla's is towards the back and everyone backs in to charge.

 

[Tony Burgh]

Purely a guess, but because of cost, my assumption is there will only be ONE charge port on the 2025 Gen 2 Lightning, and it will be the NACS.

Munro Live did a breakdown comparison between the NACS and current CCS charging cables yesterday and Ford will be saving money by switching to NACS. Less cables, less expensive cables, and a less expensive port.

The real question will be WHERE will the port be? Tesla's is towards the back and everyone backs in to charge.

Rear quarter panel and the truck will back itself into the spot, imo.

 

[Bills R Electric]

Rear quarter panel and the truck will back itself into the spot, imo.

The length of the cables from the charge port to their end point in the Lightning will probably dictate the location.

Self backing could be a real thing for the 2025 version.

 

[TaxmanHog]

Self backing could be a real thing for the 2025 version.

Try it with your 2023 Lightning

 

[chl]

Just wondering given all the discussion around the announcement yesterday.

I’m hoping Ford will install the NACS connector on the ”other” side so both connectors are provided. (Yes I know some character will try to use both at the same time and fry the Truck!)

TESLA plans vehicle to enable home (V2H) in a couple years (but think CYBERTRUCK delay?).
If you try to do it now, it will void the warranty on the battery whose lifespan will be reduced, in theory, by that use.

Charging and discharging the EV battery affects battery lifespan, especially when charging to 100% and/or discharging below a threshold. That's why for battery longevity, the range of 80% max - 20% min is recommended.

How much using V2H will reduce battery lifespan is an open debate. EV batteries have lasted longer than predicted when the first modern EVs were introduced (Nissan Leaf and Teslas).

Some engineers have decided that TESLA could enable V2H with an over-the-air software update, at least on one model 3 they looked at.

See https://thenextweb.com/news/enginee...tly-equipped-with-hardware-for-powering-homes

A factor is using the on-board AC-DC converter as an inverter to provide AC output - will it work well in reverse and/or will it degrade it's operation/lifespan?

Now there is no reason why the NACS (TESLA) connector couldn't do V2H from an purely electrical standpoint. The question is would it be using the on-board AC-DC converter as an inverter to provide DC-AC output, or will it use the DC from the battery directly and have an external inverter such as are used on solar installations? And as is done with the Ford system.

I assume that Ford Lightning V2H capabilities will be maintained using the NACS and adapter but imagine some software modifications will be needed to the existing system.

There is a new - up to 1 megawatt - NACS design that TESLA introduced for the semi and the CYBERTRUCK. It uses an immersive cooling method with its Supercharger V4 charging cable with the same NACS connector. But I did not see verification taht these would be open to the Ford vehicles, just the V3 superchargers.

With a mega watt output and V2H you could power your whole neighborhood, lol, for a short time anyway, depending on the kWh capacity of your EV's battery. The TESLA semi has somewhere around 900 kWh. The lightning has 98kWh or 131kWh usable capacity.

I wasn't clear from the announcement whether the 2025 Lightning will have BOTH the NACS and the CCS connection ports, maybe I missed it. One would assume that they wouldn't since that would add a few bucks cost to each vehicle to have both ports.

So if it will not still have the CCS port, then the Ford Charge Station Pro at home would have to work to provide V2H as it does now but with the adapter, eh? The adapter will have to be compatible with V2H through the Charge Station Pro.

They will have to provide an adapter to use with the existing Ford network of CCS Blue Oval charge stations and the home versions as well.

As I understand it, the V2H capability is accomplished using the DC output from the battery with the inverter being in the Charge Station Pro. The NACS can supply both AC and DC on two plugs where the CCS uses 5.

Using two shared pins for both AC (L2) charging and DC (fast) charging means safety circuitry and software has to be robust so that AC is never applied to the battery directly for example.

See Fig. 4 of the following article for the details: https://www.amp.tech/tesla-nacs/

Both NACS and CCS use the same communication standard, meaning they are fully adaptable to each other. But as of yet, TESLA does not allow V2H as noted above.

On Feb. 28, Tesla announced that select stations had been fitted with adapters for other brand EVs, and drivers in California, Texas, New York and other states have reported using them successfully. But these are simply Tesla to J1772 adapters, for L2 charging as I understand it.

For the Ford deal, however, fast charging capabilities will be implemented:

...According to Ford, Tesla will develop an adapter that will be provided to customers who buy any of Ford’s EVs, including the F-150 Lightning truck, Mustang Mach-E, and E-Transit delivery van. Like the vast majority of EVs in North America, Ford’s EVs are compatible with EV chargers with CCS (Combined Charging System) plugs.

The adapter will allow Ford EVs to connect with Tesla’s Superchargers, including the Version 3 chargers that have just started to roll out. And Ford’s next-generation EV platform, which will land in 2025, will be compatible with Tesla’s North American Charging Standard port. Tesla announced that it would open up its charging standard to other automakers last year — and now Ford is one of the first companies to take it up....

See: https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/25/23737896/ford-tesla-ev-fast-charging-elon-musk-twitter-space

I assume that V2H capabilities will be maintained using the NACS and adapter but imagine some Ford Lightning software modifications might be needed to make the existing system work safely with CCS.

Time will tell.

 

[VTbuckeye]

Where will the charge port be? Left rear or right front would both work (they are essentially the same depending on whether backing in or pulling in). The big question will be how close to the ends of the truck can they make the plug.

On my phev I like the driver's side front fender. It is right there next to the driver every time they get out/get into the car. The car gets plugged in whenever it is parked at a charging location. On big battery EVs it matters less where the charge port is when you don't need to charge after every driving episode.

I've fast charged my truck once in 4k miles. I used the phev for one trip that would have required multiple fast charge stops. If NACS charging was an option I may have taken the truck, though charging our destination would have been an inconvenience (hotel didn't have charging and in-laws have a new house with no 240V outlets/hardwired charging). Adding NACS has me contemplating parting ways with our third vehicle (two drivers).

 

[v2h8484]

Some engineers have decided that TESLA could enable V2H with an over-the-air software update, at least on one model 3 they looked at.

See https://thenextweb.com/news/enginee...tly-equipped-with-hardware-for-powering-homes

This has been fully debunked many times. The guy who made the original speculation also admitted he made a mistake. There is no bidirectional charging capable HW in the Tesla M3.

 

[chl]

This has been fully debunked many times. The guy who made the original speculation also admitted he made a mistake. There is no bidirectional charging capable HW in the Tesla M3.

Well I don't know for certain about that, the article was updated due to some mistakes but did not change the basic conclusion.

If you have a link handy for the 'debunk' I'd like to read it.

Also, Tesla has said if you use your Tesla vehicle in a V2H way, it will void the warranty - that implies that it IS possible to do it, but Tesla wants you NOT to.

Tesla uses the ISO15118 communications standard/protocol which enables Vehicle to Grid, Vehicle to Home. See: https://www.switch-ev.com/blog/how-iso15118-supports-vehicle-to-grid

So in theory at least, it could be done.

The Tesla battery can be directly access using the NACS connection.

In a Tesla, if AC (L2) charging is to be implemented on the NACS cable, the system disconnects the battery (DC) direct connection and instead connects to the converter in the Tesla to convert the L2 AC to DC to charge the battery. If DC fast charging to to be done, then the battery is directly connect to the NACS cable bypassing the converter.

This is done with software and hardware circuitry implementing the switching. One must assume the software complies with ISO 15118 which both CCS and NACS utilize.

With an external inverter, like is in the Ford Power Station Pro, the DC from the Tesla battery over the NACS cable could be used to supply AC for household powering, controlled by the ISO 15118 communications protocol/standard, with changes to the Tesla software to insure that the rate of drain (output power) from the battery is within a safe range and so that the battery is not depleted below a safe level.

So I think the engineer in the article got it right, that the potential is there.

Tesla says they are going to implement it in 2025.

Given that the V2H would generally be used in emergency situation, that is, not everyday, the impact on the battery lifespan should not be much of a factor. And less than the impact of repeated fast DC charging of the battery.

There is an old saying in the engineering field that goes something like: A physicist will tell you why it can't work, an engineer will go ahead and make it work.

I am an engineer, so I'm more optimistic about it.

 

[Amps]

Section 4.6.1 of NACS does not specify future ISO 15118 compliance and it doesn't rule it out:

The North American Charging Standard is compatible with Vehicle to X (i.e. Vehicle to load, Vehicle to home, vehicle to grid) power transfer. Future versions of this technical specification will specify the functional requirements and specifications required to achieve vehicle to X power transfer.

 

[v2h8484]

Well I don't know for certain about that, the article was updated due to some mistakes but did not change the basic conclusion.

If you have a link handy for the 'debunk' I'd like to read it.

Google is your friend. But IngeerX has probably done the best technical analysis to debunk the nonsense.

There is an old saying in the engineering field that goes something like: A physicist will tell you why it can't work, an engineer will go ahead and make it work.

Don't see how that's relevant. No one is saying V2H can't work and it has already been done. Just not by Tesla. Tesla is certainly capable of adding V2H to their cars but they have a powerful business reason for not doing it. It's called Tesla Powerwall.

 

[MickeyAO]

I was just getting ready to post IngeneerX's (someone I have worked with in the past) video. He was debunking that Tesla already had this capability, not that they could not do it in the future. It would require a hardware modification to the older Teslas.

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