Working Pro Power using Generator Lockout Kit to Feed the Whole Panel

[Nikola 369]

Not too sure about the quality of an 8 circuit panel with breakers for $28.

The nice thing about the lockout plate is you're using all your original panel and breakers. Just adding 2 circuit breakers to the panel and an inlet receptical.

That drum switch might be fine for a boat or rv, but I doubt anything you listed is UL rated for a home.

Heck a few 12 gauge extensions cords will work as needed with no rewiring, just a bit of leg work.

Rick

The panel is square D panel and the breakers were relocated from main (also Square D )panel. The drum switch is UL listed and rated 380VAC 63Amps, so good fit for 240VAC 30Amps from lightning.
As for being approved for home use. Many local inspectors are not approving the generator lockout metal slider, it is up to them. The problem with this idea is it requires you to use the breakers as switches……..up through 30amp most breakers are SWT rated (switch rated). The main in your panel is not and this leads to a weak spring tension in breaker. Later the weak spring tension gets hot and can cause a fire. I literally did an inspection for an insurance company, when I was an electrician, for this very reason. Breakers are’nt switches, this is why most inspecrors require transfer switches. After I finished my install, local inspector did inspection and check paperwork of items used, setup was approved.

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[Maquis]

I wonder why the ground terminal in the receptacle couldn't be connected to a grounding rod so it would be an isolated ground.

That would do absolutely nothing safety-wise.

 

[Nikola 369]

Interesting ... The lockout allows for feeding the entire panel so there's no need to preselect what circuits to backup.

I agree this is convenient, but not the best. Direct to main panel requires the monitoring of load so the over current device isn’t exceeded and tripped. This isn’t too bad if truck is in garage and garage is attached to house. The setup I have runs the furnace, AC, and power vent hot water heater. I still have more power available that could be added without exceeding limit. I plan to add the lightning circuit next.

 

[VTbuckeye]

If your circuits are all in a sub panel and the neutrals have been separated would the lightning be able to power these without the GFCI tripping? I don't need it to work because of our powerwall battery/solar however if needed in the winter (when solar production drops by an order of magnitude) it could be nice to have. When solar was installed we upgraded our electric service to 200 amp and put the new main panel in the garage. The old panel stayed in the basement and became a subpanel. Having the circuits that we want to backup across multiple subpanels makes the generac neutral switching backup panel less than ideal.

 

[chl]

I had an electrician do the work and will have it inspected when I return home and will share the outcome.

From what I've gathered, because the generator is not permanent, there is no need for a transfer switch, I suppose I'll find out

Dwellings have a special section of code - requires a transfer switch.

 

[chl]

If your circuits are all in a sub panel and the neutrals have been separated would the lightning be able to power these without the GFCI tripping? I don't need it to work because of our powerwall battery/solar however if needed in the winter (when solar production drops by an order of magnitude) it could be nice to have. When solar was installed we upgraded our electric service to 200 amp and put the new main panel in the garage. The old panel stayed in the basement and became a subpanel. Having the circuits that we want to backup across multiple subpanels makes the generac neutral switching backup panel less than ideal.

That is essentially what the Generac 6853 does. The tripping is because there are two paths for the grounded neutral do some of the return current would go through that ground path.

 

[chl]

I wonder why the ground terminal in the receptacle couldn't be connected to a grounding rod so it would be an isolated ground. I know there are parts of the code about multiple paths to ground but it seems to makes sense??

The issue is two neutral ground paths.

Putting in a ground rod IF the neutral is grounded at the house would provide that second grounding and trip the breaker.

Grounding the Lightning frame with a ground rod is a good idea IF the neutrals are not grounded at the house.

That is the way an out-building, like a shed, is done.

You have the neutrals in the shed sub-panel not grounded there-they are connected to a neutral that is only grounded in the main panel.

But you DO have a grounding rod for the shed grounds - you also of course have the main panel ground rods as well. And a continuous ground wire between the shed sub-panel and the main panel.

The problem arises when the NEUTRALS are grounded in two places.

Neutrals are current carrying conductors and some of the return current could go through the ground if the neutrals are grounded in two distant locations.

This is all in the code.

BTW, I am not a licensed electrician, but I do have a masters degree in electrical engineering so I know something about circuits, and I have done wiring installations that have passed electrical inspection without requiring any changes, including two out-buildings (sheds). Doing those is why I picked up the code book and read up on it.

When I got the Lightning and thought about powering my house emergency circuits, I refreshed my knowledge and read up on the requirement for powering a dwelling from a backup generator, which is what the Lightning is.

 

[Nikola 369]

If your circuits are all in a sub panel and the neutrals have been separated would the lightning be able to power these without the GFCI tripping? I don't need it to work because of our powerwall battery/solar however if needed in the winter (when solar production drops by an order of magnitude) it could be nice to have. When solar was installed we upgraded our electric service to 200 amp and put the new main panel in the garage. The old panel stayed in the basement and became a subpanel. Having the circuits that we want to backup across multiple subpanels makes the generac neutral switching backup panel less than ideal.

I have a question? When you added Solar and upgraded the panel, did you add batteries at that time or is it just strictly Solar setup?

 

[VTbuckeye]

I have a question? When you added Solar and upgraded the panel, did you add batteries at that time or is it just strictly Solar setup?

Batteries/solar/panel upgrade Aug 2022 all at the same time.
Enphase micro inverters, 39x380W panels, with Tesla powerwall X2 (27kWh total). My best months of production almost 2200kWh and the worst 170kWh. Spring vs winter.

 

[Nikola 369]

Batteries/solar/panel upgrade Aug 2022 all at the same time.
Enphase micro inverters, 39x380W panels, with Tesla powerwall X2 (27kWh total). My best months of production almost 2200kWh and the worst 170kWh. Spring vs winter.

Ok, very good information shared. The reason that I ask is during this time of upgrade, there are a couple ways to accomplish your setup. The most important part is, they installed an automatic transfer switch with the power walls, required by code to isolate your micro grid from utility grid during power outage. The 2 power walls don’t have enough output during an outage to supply the 200amp panel fully. They have likely installed or used one of your other panels as the “critical loads” panel. if Not this setup then they would have had to install load shedding relays in one of the panels. I think powerwall output in the nominal is around 7,500watts, so 2 around 15,000 which would give you about 62.5 amps @240VAC, pretty far from the 200amp panel you installed in garage. If you figure some of this out with your installer and let me know, I could offer an idea to install a generator setup from lightning. There might even be a marked generator line in the power wall setup. I have an Enphase Solar system, 7.3KW on ac side, and the automatic transfer switch is build into enphase “system Controller 2” smart switch. This smart switch also has a dedicated generator line. Your setup is a little differen, but I bet there is an option through the power wall setup.

 

[VTbuckeye]

Ok, very good information shared. The reason that I ask is during this time of upgrade, there are a couple ways to accomplish your setup. The most important part is, they installed an automatic transfer switch with the power walls, required by code to isolate your micro grid from utility grid during power outage. The 2 power walls don’t have enough output during an outage to supply the 200amp panel fully. They have likely installed or used one of your other panels as the “critical loads” panel. if Not this setup then they would have had to install load shedding relays in one of the panels. I think powerwall output in the nominal is around 7,500watts, so 2 around 15,000 which would give you about 62.5 amps @240VAC, pretty far from the 200amp panel you installed in garage. If you figure some of this out with your installer and let me know, I could offer an idea to install a generator setup from lightning. There might even be a marked generator line in the power wall setup. I have an Enphase Solar system, 7.3KW on ac side, and the automatic transfer switch is build into enphase “system Controller 2” smart switch. This smart switch also has a dedicated generator line. Your setup is a little differen, but I bet there is an option through the power wall setup.

Correct, the powewall can not supply 200amp. Our EVSEs are on an isolated load panel, so they do not work with grid power off. If power were to go out overnight while charging, the car charging will stop. The Tesla gateway has the automatic transfer switch built in. We have natural gas heat/hot water. Electric stove. I've seen the house pull over 10kW once (stove/oven/dryer) without the cars charging. I was more curious if during a prolonged winter outage I could run the house from the lightning while the powerwall charged very slowly from solar generation. Would the fact that my house panel is a subpanel make the bonded neutral generator of the lightning a non-issue with respect to GFCI tripping.

 

[Nikola 369]

Correct, the powewall can not supply 200amp. Our EVSEs are on an isolated load panel, so they do not work with grid power off. If power were to go out overnight while charging, the car charging will stop. The Tesla gateway has the automatic transfer switch built in. We have natural gas heat/hot water. Electric stove. I've seen the house pull over 10kW once (stove/oven/dryer) without the cars charging. I was more curious if during a prolonged winter outage I could run the house from the lightning while the powerwall charged very slowly from solar generation. Would the fact that my house panel is a subpanel make the bonded neutral generator of the lightning a non-issue with respect to GFCI tripping.

I see, smart way to set this up without costing you much more money for install. Couple of ideas here: could talk with installer to see if the powerwall/ gateway has a generator input? Then you could wire the 240VAC bed outlet to a receptacle that connects with generator input. Enphase can have its smart switch set to match generator size and not pull too hard on generator. I’m assuming Tesla has thought of this and has something simila. This would be fast and relatively cheap to accomplish. Thoughts are if it was daylight and power goes out, but batteries are very low or out, no power, but if you connect lightning, the solar should rest and come back up. I haven’t check out all of Enphase‘s inverters, but mine are IQ8+ and that’s how they work.
the other idea is harder and will cost more. Basically make a critical load panel that doesn’t exceed 30 amps @240VAC and have a manual transfer switch between it and the other house panel. Then make a new line from garage to that transfer switch. This will work fine for the house, but you would still have to speak with installer and engineering for power walls. The reason is if you suddenly remove load or make a change, you don’t want to cause a disruption to the powerwalls/ gateway or it could be damaged. Similar verbiage in the Enphase literature. I don’t know how easy it would be to access your house panel if it’s in an area that is full finished, maybe another reason the new panel was installed in garage.
I know this is a lot more than running drop cords, but that would be hard to do, not very safe, and managing the cords yet another issue. Let me know your thoughts here. I always love to have a reason to learn more. I know enough about the power walls to be dangerous.

 

[Danface]

The issue is two neutral ground paths.

Putting in a ground rod IF the neutral is grounded at the house would provide that second grounding and trip the breaker.

Grounding the Lightning frame with a ground rod is a good idea IF the neutrals are not grounded at the house.

That is the way an out-building, like a shed, is done.

You have the neutrals in the shed sub-panel not grounded there-they are connected to a neutral that is only grounded in the main panel.

But you DO have a grounding rod for the shed grounds - you also of course have the main panel ground rods as well. And a continuous ground wire between the shed sub-panel and the main panel.

The problem arises when the NEUTRALS are grounded in two places.

Neutrals are current carrying conductors and some of the return current could go through the ground if the neutrals are grounded in two distant locations.

This is all in the code.

BTW, I am not a licensed electrician, but I do have a masters degree in electrical engineering so I know something about circuits, and I have done wiring installations that have passed electrical inspection without requiring any changes, including two out-buildings (sheds). Doing those is why I picked up the code book and read up on it.

When I got the Lightning and thought about powering my house emergency circuits, I refreshed my knowledge and read up on the requirement for powering a dwelling from a backup generator, which is what the Lightning is.

So connecting the red, black and white wires from the receptacle back to the main and the green wire to a 6 AWG wire run to grounding rod with an acorn clamp would isolate the truck to ground and not provide an alternate path to ground for the neutral, yes?

Of course I could just drive a grounding rod, use my heavy duty jumper cable to ground between it and the truck frame.

 

[Danface]

Dwellings have a special section of code - requires a transfer switch.

Well the inspector will be the decider

 

[Danface]

That would do absolutely nothing safety-wise.

Why not, wouldn't it provide a path to ground for a ground fault?

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