Ideas for soft encouragement of 85% charge.

[Wendy]

Perhaps the simplest solution is to have more EV chargers and eliminate charging deserts!
I know this is not the least costly solution, but the DCFC owners/operators have the data to tell them if they need to add more charging positions at a particular location due to high usage. But then again they are trying to make as much as possible with the smallest investment possible as they are for profit companies. User wait time is probably low on the list of priorities for most of them! Not to mention the problems many of them seem to have with up time of their existing DCFCs and the number that have slow 50kWh speeds.

Many of the places I have DCFC’d other than Tesla (I admit that other than my 1500 mile trip home when I purchased my Lightning I haven’t used any since having the FCSP installed) have only had a 1-4 boxes(not sure what to call them other than that) and one to two cables from each box sometimes only one of them Is CCS and the other one is Chademo or whatever the hell it is. I have only been to three Tesla superchargers that had the magic dock and they had at least eight positions. One of the videos I saw posted on this forum there was one supercharger location that had 50 something I think.

We are still in the early adopter stage as far as over the road charging goes, and hopefully competition will not only increase the number of locations, but make it less expensive over time…. well, at least more locations! More locations are coming online. I won’t say every day but every month maybe-LOL

My friends have a lot in Eastern Washington, in an area where the closest charger is about 30 miles away and right on a highway. They looked into installing 12 charging stations (there is a WA State Program that was offering to cover 25% of the cost). But ran into some big issues with installing stations:
The Power Company said they did not have the capacity, but could allow 3-4 stations.
The program ran out of money.
Even at 25% of the cost it was a huge amount of money for the stations and they would have to look for a 'partner' in one of the networks to fund the installation.

They hope to have an opportunity if more funds come available. I guess Tesla just has unlimited $$$ to build more stations.

Sponsored

 

[RickLightning]

No, I am done. You can go back and reread, or not.

 

[Maxx]

Although there could be real consequences to waiting (missing an important job interview or birth of your first born), part of the pain of waiting is the perception of passage of time. If you are stressed out about someone cutting the line and have to watch everyone like a hawk, ready for a fist fight, time goes a lot slower and wait feels a lot longer.

On the other hand stress and anxiety associated with waiting could be reduced if

• there were single line queue with clear marking and signs to manage waiting.
• anything to contribute to entertainment like free wifi.
• the provider could provide estimated wait time.
• make more support staff available during high congestion times.
• Limiting free charging to only off peak hours.
• Where it makes sense, provide express lanes (limited to 5 or 10 minutes of charging) for those that need just enough to make it home or to the next DCFC.

 

[Firn]

Every one of your arguments uses a vehicle with a slow MAXIMUM charge rate, but that has NEVER been the discussion. This is about vehicles charging at speeds that SIGNIFICANTLY below THEIR OWN max charge speed. Its about the time it takes to add a set amount of energy when that same car could add that energy in a FRACTION of the time.

Nobody is saying a bolt cannot charge because it charges at 50kw, they are saying it should not charge to 100% unless needed because it does so at a speed that is MUCH MUCH SLOWER than lower in the charge curve. Whatever amount of energy the are adding could be added in a small portion of the time.

The same is true of the Lightning, its not about it its charging speed, its about the fact that above 90% it takes SIGNIFIACNTLY longer to add the SAME amount of energy than could be done just by stopping to charge a bit earlier next time.

All folks are asking for is courtesy, but charging to 100% is like asking the bank teller after she is done handing you your cash what her favorite color is and if she likes dogs when there are 10 people in line behind you. (yes, a very dated analogy)

 

[richl025]

Tough topic - sure, there are reasons people may need to charge about 85-90%. But sometimes it's just arrogance / convenience

Only 1 working charger at a DCFC last week, my lightning was down to about 10% because the hotel's L2 chargers were not working (those chargers were the reason we picked the hotel in the first place!). The Mach-E driver at the only working DCFC was at 85% and chillin', reading a book in her car. When I politely asked her what she was going to charge to, she told me "100%, because I have a long way to go) - she had California plates and I know for a fact there are many DCFCs along the I-5 corridor - it was just more convenient for her to keep readong & charge to 100%, the fact that there were people waiting, be damned.

She was also a young female driver, alone in the car, so a random older male offering her etiquette advice would not have been welcome, I'm sure.

I hope she figures it out someday, but there are always people who don't return the shopping cart back to the rack because it's too much work, or they're too good for that...

 

[RickKeen]

Although there could be real consequences to waiting (missing an important job interview or birth of your first born), part of the pain of waiting is the perception of passage of time. If you are stressed out about someone cutting the line and have to watch everyone like a hawk, ready for a fist fight, time goes a lot slower and wait feels a lot longer.

On the other hand stress and anxiety associated with waiting could be reduced if

• there were single line queue with clear marking and signs to manage waiting.
• anything to contribute to entertainment like free wifi.
• the provider could provide estimated wait time.
• make more support staff available during high congestion times.
• Limiting free charging to only off peak hours.
• Where it makes sense, provide express lanes (limited to 5 or 10 minutes of charging) for those that need just enough to make it home or to the next DCFC.

If there were better way to manage the line, then I think a lot of the concerns would go away.
But that is a hard problem.

I think a combo of giving people awareness that they are charging slowly and people are waiting would solve 90% of the cases. Thus I titled the thread "soft" enforcement.

And "enforcement" is too strong a word. Perhaps "encouragement".

 

[Firn]

What if like the other 10, the only reason you went to the bank was to ask those questions in the first place?

I don't have enough personal experience or data to support this, but my feeling is with enough education, technology and time 100% DCFC charging should not be an issue for long. Most people wouldn't want to waste their own time or battery health to do it. What remains are a minority that are either truly need it, uneducated or A holes. There are fixes for the last two but neither can be completely eliminated so it is wise to build up a tolerance for both.

If you go to the bank specifically to talk to the teller personal questions, and hold up ten people in line to do it, then the "F You" statement is entirely appropriate.

We are having this discussion BECAUSE folks either don't know or don't care. Sure, the future may be different, but the discussion is about what is happening right now. The simple fact of the matter is that charging to 100% when you don't need it negatively affects others for no real reason, so is it right for there to be methods of discouraging the practice.

The only real reason I have against a charger implemented "congestion" fee is that because mot chargers bill by energy delivered it encourages the charger company to kick off slow charging cars, or cars that are past peak charging rate. We say 80% SOC, which makes sense for a Lightning, but the Tesla charge curve is WAY different. What if they decide to implement congestion charging when charge RATE drops below 80% max? You know they would rather have a car sucking down 250kw instead of one sucking down 100kw... (puts on tinfoil hat) Heck, maybe Bolts and Leafs just "happen" to error out more often than faster charging cars.....

 

[Calvin H-C]

Like the retired gentleman at a de-rated EA location who listened and said, "but I'm not traveling, and I didn't put in a home charger because VW gave me free charging, and time doesn't matter to me." I said "but it does matter to me, and that guy over there, because we're on trips, waiting for you and the guy who left his car and went shopping and he's at 100%". He shrugged. F him.

Yes, F him. Until I can invoice people for wasting my time, that's all I can say.

Unfortunately, the MTO (or version of the DMV) won't provide me with a mailing address for an invoice from a licence plate number.

 

[RickKeen]

How about some peer pressure. When charging gets to the point of slowing down up past 80%, (and the site knows there are people waiting) the app pops up a query that has to be answered to continue:

"Your charging session has reached the point of diminishing returns for your vehicle and there are people waiting. Please enter a reason to continue that will be sent to those waiting:
- I need the range to reach my next charging point. Thanks.
- Not needed, but more convenient for me. Sorry.
- Thanks for letting me know people are waiting. [Stops Charging].
- Nobody appears to be waiting.
- Something is not right / having problems.
"

 

[Firn]

A person charging from 50-70% isn't going to do so IF THERE IS A LINE FOR THE CHARGER. That is a self regulating situation. But seriously, now you are going for whataboutism?

There is no difference to me? How can you possibly be so completely out of touch with this discussion. Someone choosing to spending 20 minutes to add 5kw of energy, when they could have chose to spent 3 minutes to do the same, while I am stuck unable to add ANY charge AT ALL, absolutely makes a difference to me.

I'm not arguing those who charge at an OVERALL slower rate because THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER CHOICE, I'm pointing this out for WHEN THEY DO HAVE A CHOICE. And the ONLY thing I have supported is DISCOURAGING the practice of charging to 100% and only WHEN there is a line. You keep trying to try and drive this to claim folks are "condemning" those who drive slow charging cars but THAT IS IN NO WAY THE SAME THING. I'm pretty sure you keep doing so, and purposely avoiding the point, because your argument holds no water otherwise.

Don't make up insane arguments, this is in NO WAY similar to the justification for owing a pickup truck. If you have to go to such absolute insane comparisons it speaks volumes to the quality of your argument. Either that or you are unable to understand the discussion being had. Neither of which serve you well here.

"Expose your lie", you can stow that absolute garbage. If you have to claim a different viewpoint is a "lie" then you are incompetent or lying yourself, neither of which serve you well. Stow the rhetoric because it just highlights how weak your actual points are.

Bottom line you have always and perpetually tried to gaslight this discussion and its disgusting. "Passed Judgement", that absolutely has to be gaslighting because you cannot possibly be so incompetent to think that is what has been said.

Sponsored