SunRun Require PV (Photovoltaic) system with F150 Lightning use as home back-up power

[ChasingCoral]

So what exactly is the advantage of using SunRun? It's not like they are doing it for free. Presumably, there are countless electricians that can perform the work, probably cheaper.

It gives Ford an easy option for consumers. You certainly wouldn’t want your Ford dealer doing this work!

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[AutonomousHybridF150]

Exactly what I’m planning on doing. Either flip breakers off like you said, or at least be very judicious in using power hungry but not necessarily vital items like dryer, range, or water heater. The 7.2 kW outlet on the truck will run everything in your house.....but certainly not all at the same time.

It’s not going to start up a 4 ton AC condenser.

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

It gives Ford an easy option for consumers. You certainly wouldn’t want your Ford dealer doing this work!

I don’t trust Ford to change my oil, much less re-wire my house. LOL!!!

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

Ok folks. Here is the correct answer for the OP. I’m also an electrician, so this thread got my wheels turning. I was trying to figure out why an extra inverter would be needed, simply to emergency power your home via the change cable. Because that Would NOT be nearly as simple as Ford stated it to be.

Sunrun is only partnering with Ford to install the Solar Aray system and home electrical management system, so the lightning can act like a Tesla Powerwall and buffer power coming from the solar panels.

All FORD literature states that the 80 amp pro Charger can back feed your home once the transfer switch has been activated.

Sunrun will not be installing the chargers only, which is why they told you they are only selling you a solar array + installing the charger. Because that’s the only reason you would call Sunrunthat’s the only reason they are partnered with Ford, for the solar panels.

The F-150 Lightning Has dual inverters onboard, and NO literature states that the home management system (inverter) is required to power your home during a blackout. It only makes mention of a transfer switch.

And a transfer switch is basically exactly like a main breaker, but it switches to a different power source.

100 bucks says the F-150 Lightning Charger is smart enough to check the resistance on the line to determine if it is still connected to the grid, and thus it will probably give you an error saying “please engage transfer switch” or something of that nature.

I would be willing to bet you can just turn the main off, and the truck will power your house via the 80 amp charger.

Nothing states any extra equipment is needed, except transfer switch, and that’s NOT an inverter.

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

Here is an article, which explains it better than I could. This is exactly what Ford’s fine print says. The things everyone is saying is 1 thing, are actually 2 completely different functions and outcomes, thus the need for an inverter on the wall somewhere.

Ford 80 amp charging station with intelligent back up power - Requirements - Transfer switch needed.

Ford Intelligent Power - Extra equipment needed - (solar panels + inverter installed by Sunrun).

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

If I’m correct, this is the only extra equipment you need to properly use the lightning emergency power if you have the 80 amp charger.

 

[F-150 Prius]

Here is an article, which explains it better than I could. This is exactly what Ford’s fine print says. The things everyone is saying is 1 thing, are actually 2 completely different functions and outcomes, thus the need for an inverter on the wall somewhere.

Ford 80 amp charging station with intelligent back up power - Requirements - Transfer switch needed.

Ford Intelligent Power - Extra equipment needed - (solar panels + inverter installed by Sunrun).

That's the gist of it – the car alone can't service the peak power demands of the house, but with a battery/solar and automatic transfer switch, the car could supply enough power for any given 24hours, and the battery would stand up to the peak demands.
A Lightning or Hybrid could work in a "power shedding" arrangement with a transfer switch.

Of course you really want your fridge and freezer to stay on while the truck is not parked and connected, so a battery-solar makes sense, but the price is a shock.

 

[Blainestang]

It’s not going to start up a 4 ton AC condenser.

Might work with a soft start or VFD, though, based on a super quick google search of running kW vs. starting kW. The starting kW is the problem (12kW). Running kW (4kW) is doable.

 

[ChasingCoral]

Ok folks. Here is the correct answer for the OP. I’m also an electrician, so this thread got my wheels turning. I was trying to figure out why an extra inverter would be needed, simply to emergency power your home via the change cable. Because that Would NOT be nearly as simple as Ford stated it to be.

Sunrun is only partnering with Ford to install the Solar Aray system and home electrical management system, so the lightning can act like a Tesla Powerwall and buffer power coming from the solar panels.

All FORD literature states that the 80 amp pro Charger can back feed your home once the transfer switch has been activated.

Sunrun will not be installing the chargers only, which is why they told you they are only selling you a solar array + installing the charger. Because that’s the only reason you would call Sunrunthat’s the only reason they are partnered with Ford, for the solar panels.

The F-150 Lightning Has dual inverters onboard, and NO literature states that the home management system (inverter) is required to power your home during a blackout. It only makes mention of a transfer switch.

And a transfer switch is basically exactly like a main breaker, but it switches to a different power source.

100 bucks says the F-150 Lightning Charger is smart enough to check the resistance on the line to determine if it is still connected to the grid, and thus it will probably give you an error saying “please engage transfer switch” or something of that nature.

I would be willing to bet you can just turn the main off, and the truck will power your house via the 80 amp charger.

Nothing states any extra equipment is needed, except transfer switch, and that’s NOT an inverter.

Even more importantly, if your house has an automatic transfer switch, the Pro Charger will hopefully communicate with it to activate emergency power to the house.

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

Might work with a soft start or VFD, though, based on a super quick google search of running kW vs. starting kW. The starting kW is the problem (12kW). Running kW (4kW) is doable.

OHHHH VFD!!! I was aware it is the start up draw that prevents it from working, but wasn’t aware of a VFD being able to possibly help with that.

That’s something I’ve never learned about!! Please do tell sir. Because I would love to make something for buy something that could help start a large AC condenser. The working amperage draw wouldn’t be an issue for the 7.2kw, so I’d love to take a whack at it.

My brother is HVAC certified, so the means I’ve done most HVAC stuff, and he purchased the Freon for me. Lol. I would love to drop a video powering up a whole home AC. That would be a good how to video.

Please tell me what you know about VFD. Thanks!

 

[Blainestang]

OHHHH VFD!!! I was aware it is the start up draw that prevents it from working, but wasn’t aware of a VFD being able to possibly help with that.

That’s something I’ve never learned about!! Please do tell sir. Because I would love to make something for buy something that could help start a large AC condenser. The working amperage draw wouldn’t be an issue for the 7.2kw, so I’d love to take a whack at it.

My brother is HVAC certified, so the means I’ve done most HVAC stuff, and he purchased the Freon for me. Lol. I would love to drop a video powering up a whole home AC. That would be a good how to video.

Please tell me what you know about VFD. Thanks!

I think there's another "typical" name for them in the HVAC industry, but soft start / VFDs are sometimes used for this same purpose when people have Tesla Powerwalls.

Some newer, higher-efficiency units already have VFDs built in, but older ones don't, of course, so sometimes people install them so that their Powerwalls (which have the same issue we're talking about here... often enough output to run A/C, but not always to start it) will power their A/C.

If you Google "soft start A/C Powerwall", you'll get a some hits that may have more detail than me. I have solar, but the battery backup ROI was poor, so I didn't do that. If the truck COMES with it, though, I'll probably do it and might need a soft start, as well.

 

[shutterbug]

It gives Ford an easy option for consumers. You certainly wouldn’t want your Ford dealer doing this work!

While I wouldn't want the dealer do the work, there are lots of qualified electricians here that can do the work without trying to upsell.

 

[skaphan]

I think I see what's probably going on here.

If you use one of the AC outlets on this vehicle, you don't need an inverter to connect it to your house, you just need a transfer switch like to connect any generator. But you will be limited to the power output of that AC outlet, which I think, reading between the lines, is 2.4 kW.

If you want to get the whole 9.6 kW they are promising, I think you need to use the DC circuitry via their charging station, which then must be attached to an inverter to convert the DC to AC for your house. This would feed into the inverter in the same way that a roof full of solar panels do -- as high voltage DC power.

I think maybe the AC connections are not rated for this. It would be 40 Amps @ 240V.

The other reason to go through an inverter is for the automatic cutoff from the grid that you must have before the connected battery can safely (and legally) put power onto the house circuits.
Otherwise you need a transfer switch.

 

[aika1]

I think I see what's probably going on here.

If you use one of the AC outlets on this vehicle, you don't need an inverter to connect it to your house, you just need a transfer switch like to connect any generator. But you will be limited to the power output of that AC outlet, which I think, reading between the lines, is 2.4 kW.

If you want to get the whole 9.6 kW they are promising, I think you need to use the DC circuitry via their charging station, which then must be attached to an inverter to convert the DC to AC for your house. This would feed into the inverter in the same way that a roof full of solar panels do -- as high voltage DC power.

I think maybe the AC connections are not rated for this. It would be 40 Amps @ 240V.

The other reason to go through an inverter is for the automatic cutoff from the grid that you must have before the connected battery can safely (and legally) put power onto the house circuits.
Otherwise you need a transfer switch.

Whew! I work in the Solar Renewables space, and so I'm in the thick of all of this conversation on a daily basis. And yes, I bought a gas F-150 anyways (or because of all of this).
Some basics: All batteries that we are referring to, whether car or house, are DC (Direct Current). So is Solar. An inverter will change the current from AC (Alternating Current) to DC or from DC to AC. Your house runs on AC. IF you were to install the Ford Charger that they're talking about, and if it's a "stand-alone" unit that does not require Solar (and the inverter that goes with it), then they HAVE to have some type of inverter involved in the CSS charger. Therefore, there is a good chance that the same inverter in that stand-alone unit would be able to go from DC to AC in the event of a power outage.
IF you have solar, you already have the requisite Inverter to go from DC from your modules to AC in your house. Many newer inverters on the market can make the switch from DC to AC conversion to AC to DC conversion. BUT! Because of the way the National Electric Codes were written (whether you're on NEC2008, 2011, 2014, or 2017), your inverter WILL NOT DO THIS. Note that I said "will" not, not "Can" not. Islanding was seen as dangerous and "anti-islanding" was a sales feature on Inverters for decades. That being said, if you were to buy an Automatic Transfer Switch, you can effectively trick your inverter into thinking the grid is still fine and dandy, and it will continue to hum along, thinking that it's not "islanding". This is how newer Solar/Storage systems work from the likes of Enphase, Solaredge, and Generac. If you want to get even fancier you can couple a battery AND a generator with the Generac units for back-up power to your back-up power.
Many times these ATS units (Automatic Transfer Switches) will have a GUI that allows the homeowner to control which circuits are on backup. How does that work? Well when you install most of these systems, it's not backing up your entire house. It's supplying backup power to a subpanel that you have chosen to populate with specific circuits (many times you can group say 4 circuits onto each "bank" within the subpanel and then choose to provide power per bank). Your AC would be on another bank, so you can completely dump that during an outage, or if you require your AC, you could select that to run, at which point it would dump the load from other banks and soft-start your AC.
Basically, you have options, but someone is going to have to do some exploring...


Too long; didn't read: SunRun ain't the only outfit that can do this. I recommend you go to a local solar installer and tell them you're not interested in solar, but ARE interested in a backup system. The smaller outfits will be intrigued and want to work it out with you...

 

[skaphan]

Whew! I work in the Solar Renewables space, and so I'm in the thick of all of this conversation on a daily basis. And yes, I bought a gas F-150 anyways (or because of all of this).
Some basics: All batteries that we are referring to, whether car or house, are DC (Direct Current). So is Solar.

It depends. Solar panels generate DC directly, but many installations use "microinverters" which are located at the solar panels and convert each panel's output to AC. In this type of installation no other inverter is needed, unless there is battery backup. See below why this is relevant.

An inverter will change the current from AC (Alternating Current) to DC or from DC to AC. Your house runs on AC. IF you were to install the Ford Charger that they're talking about, and if it's a "stand-alone" unit that does not require Solar (and the inverter that goes with it), then they HAVE to have some type of inverter involved in the CSS charger. Therefore, there is a good chance that the same inverter in that stand-alone unit would be able to go from DC to AC in the event of a power outage.

The Ford CSS Pro doesn't do Level 3 charging, according to what I've read about it anyway, so it doesn't have to convert to DC in its normal usage mode. I think they must have some way of passing the DC, if it comes up the cable from the vehicle, to a separate inverter. I think this is why they are talking about having to have an inverter. I don't see why the CSS Pro would have a DC to AC inverter already built in. Up til now that hasn't been needed and it would be costly to have that feature if nobody was using it. Exactly how this hookup from the CSS to an inverter goes is not entirely clear.

IF you have solar, you already have the requisite Inverter to go from DC from your modules to AC in your house. Many newer inverters on the market can make the switch from DC to AC conversion to AC to DC conversion.

This is needed when there is a battery in the system, especially a microinverter-based system, because as you say, batteries are DC devices. The microinverters at the solar panels generate AC which then must be converted by a central inverter back to DC to charge the battery, and when the battery is in use it must convert from DC to AC to power the house. This is how an "AC coupled" system like the Powerwall works, as I understand it anyway.

BUT! Because of the way the National Electric Codes were written (whether you're on NEC2008, 2011, 2014, or 2017), your inverter WILL NOT DO THIS. Note that I said "will" not, not "Can" not. Islanding was seen as dangerous and "anti-islanding" was a sales feature on Inverters for decades. That being said, if you were to buy an Automatic Transfer Switch, you can effectively trick your inverter into thinking the grid is still fine and dandy, and it will continue to hum along, thinking that it's not "islanding". This is how newer Solar/Storage systems work from the likes of Enphase, Solaredge, and Generac.

My SolarEdge inverter does not require a separate transfer switch. It has its own internal switch and disconnects from the grid when the grid is down so that it can safely put battery power onto the house circuits. Inverters not meant to use a battery have to "see" grid power in order to put energy onto their outputs, as a safety feature for electrical workers. To make such a system work when the grid is down, the system must be disconnected from the grid, and then a fake grid power signal has to be put on the wires to make the inverter think it is connected and can therefore switch on and generate AC.

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