208 3P/ NEMA 14-50 wiring/ 460 volt cornucopia

[Maquis]

Thanks for weighing in Maquis.

Wondering if it’s just a game of high amp evse 1p or should I be hunting a 3P solution for faster charge.
new to the game…

also trying to decipher needs for outlet breaker amperage.
Plug on charger is 50 amp.
Is the breaker amperage a limiting factor?

There are no 3 phase AC (L2) EVSEs in North America. The on board Charger accepts only single phase.
To utilize 3 phase, you have to buy DC charging equipment ($$$).

Plug-connected EVSEs are limited to 40A on a 50A branch circuit.

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[Maquis]

Farmtruck - thanks.
Drinking water from hydrant - but getting there.
The CSPs you use are hardwired - and run at 80% of their circuit. So I assume if you have them set to 100amp, you must have 125amp dedicated circuit?
Your portable is 50 amp, does that mean it requires 62.5+ rated outlet to plug into? Or have I got things backrearwards?

I think he’s stating branch circuit ampacities. 80A EVSE on a 100A circuit, 40A on a 50A circuit.

BTW - 80A is the largest EVSE currently available and very few vehicles can take advantage of that rate. 2023 and earlier Lightning ERs, mainly.

 

[farmtruck]

Farmtruck - thanks.
Drinking water from hydrant - but getting there.
The CSPs you use are hardwired - and run at 80% of their circuit. So I assume if you have them set to 100amp, you must have 125amp dedicated circuit?
Your portable is 50 amp, does that mean it requires 62.5+ rated outlet to plug into? Or have I got things backrearwards?

100 amp breaker and the charger runs at 80 amps

 

[Mmiketa]

Armadillo - good detail.
Very helpful.

Job site:
"80% of receptacle for continuous load" for recepticle. Got it.
One thing I haven't quite figured out: the role the breaker plays.
Example: if I swapped out the outlet for a 14-50, and rewired to appropriate gauge wire (6?), does the breaker need to match? (in this case, 50 amp). Box may have some additional capacity on its label. I'll check.


Thanks for the head's up.
Ironically - those were part of the job that a licensed electrician did before I installed a new larger service.

I think you should have a licensed electrician do this work. No offense, but you don't seem to have experience with this sort of thing and just using some advice from the internet to get it done is a recipe for a fire.

 

[TaxmanHog]

Hi all.
First post.
Day 2 with new truck.

Welcome to the forum, is your 23 Lariat an ER or SR battery pack?
If your truck is SR {standard range} don't waste time installing an 80 amp EVSE.

 

[Danface]

Having 3 phase makes thing interesting but expensive because you could get a 22 KWH, 3 phase DC charger like this:
https://library.abb.com/d/9AKK107991A8885
here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/204673968100

BUT yeah, go with a standard level 2 at the shop and a NEMA plug on the jobsite.

 

[Charlieman22]

Gents - all around much appreciate the input.
Some good feedback on charging options/code/circuit set up.
Thank you!

Some takeaways:
- Plug is 14-50, 4 prong, but operates on 3. I suspected this might be the case.
- Best practice is dedicated outlet/ with neutral run when putting a 14-50 on the wall (due to future users). Could run on 2 hot legs and a ground - but should mark if that's my decision.
- Breaker protects wire. Wire is sized to breaker
- Charger amperage needs to be limited (auto or just max spec) to 80% of circuit
- *Fords charger does not have ability to limit or adjust its draw ~30amp. That means I should have it on min 40am circuit according to NEC.
- The hardware store 14-50 are crap and can melt down
- The conversion of AC to DC is happening on board (which means there are probably some SCR's on a board(s) in the truck).

Solutions:
- If I want to run the charger that came with the truck - 6AWG on 40amp 2 pole (or 8 AWG THHN inside metal conduit). is way to go.
- I could otherwise buy adjusting EVSE and make a smaller circuit. Faster charge is desired - so likely the prior not the latter fits my bill better.

House cleaning: (thanks for the welcome Taxman).
- I failed to mention: It's a 23, with tow package, ER, as I wanted the additional capacity for charging even if I didn't have a solution out of the gate - or Ford improved down the road with software. This forum helped me decide that was a must - and I raced to find a '23 to grab with other features I wanted.

I think you should have a licensed electrician do this work. No offense, but you don't seem to have experience with this sort of thing and just using some advice from the internet to get it done is a recipe for a fire.

Chuckled: given my style/questions - its a pretty reasonable response.
No offense taken.
I'm probably a bit savvier/more experianced than may appear from my open ended questions.
I've wired my shop - installing a new service, dedicated circuits to machinery, 1P&3P, all to code, neatly and professionally. It's just been some time and I needed to get back up to speed. This discussion has been perfect primer.

I'm now speaking the language/ can get up and running quickly and safely at shop and job site with my existing charger - with just a little wiring and outlet swapping.

Wouldn't mind kicking the tires for a moment on the 3P discussion.

Having 3 phase makes thing interesting but expensive because you could get a 22 KWH, 3 phase DC charger like this:
https://library.abb.com/d/9AKK107991A8885
here:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/204673968100

Just what I was looking to find out. Thanks.
Was expecting this to look like $30K and be a total non starter.
Have to admit - kinda intrigued by being able to charge to 80% in less than 40 min? Do I have that right? Keep in mind - my diesel bill was ~$4500/yr previously. About what this costs.
Likely not my path - but far more reasonable than I thought - and it's not a hard no.
Perhaps I'll keep an eye on costs while I get my feet wet with level 2.

BTW - my electrical supply house gave me the head's up on the cheap outlets.
I bought the good one for this project. ($150 vs $9.99...)

Thanks all.
-CM

 

[Danface]

Gents - all around much appreciate the input.
Some good feedback on charging options/code/circuit set up.
Thank you!

Some takeaways:
- Plug is 14-50, 4 prong, but operates on 3. I suspected this might be the case.
- Best practice is dedicated outlet/ with neutral run when putting a 14-50 on the wall (due to future users). Could run on 2 hot legs and a ground - but should mark if that's my decision.
- Breaker protects wire. Wire is sized to breaker
- Charger amperage needs to be limited (auto or just max spec) to 80% of circuit
- *Fords charger does not have ability to limit or adjust its draw ~30amp. That means I should have it on min 40am circuit according to NEC.
- The hardware store 14-50 are crap and can melt down
- The conversion of AC to DC is happening on board (which means there are probably some SCR's on a board(s) in the truck).

Solutions:
- If I want to run the charger that came with the truck - 6AWG on 40amp 2 pole (or 8 AWG THHN inside metal conduit). is way to go.
- I could otherwise buy adjusting EVSE and make a smaller circuit. Faster charge is desired - so likely the prior not the latter fits my bill better.

House cleaning: (thanks for the welcome Taxman).
- I failed to mention: It's a 23, with tow package, ER, as I wanted the additional capacity for charging even if I didn't have a solution out of the gate - or Ford improved down the road with software. This forum helped me decide that was a must - and I raced to find a '23 to grab with other features I wanted.


Chuckled: given my style/questions - its a pretty reasonable response.
No offense taken.
I'm probably a bit savvier/more experianced than may appear from my open ended questions.
I've wired my shop - installing a new service, dedicated circuits to machinery, 1P&3P, all to code, neatly and professionally. It's just been some time and I needed to get back up to speed. This discussion has been perfect primer.

I'm now speaking the language/ can get up and running quickly and safely at shop and job site with my existing charger - with just a little wiring and outlet swapping.

Wouldn't mind kicking the tires for a moment on the 3P discussion.


Just what I was looking to find out. Thanks.
Was expecting this to look like $30K and be a total non starter.
Have to admit - kinda intrigued by being able to charge to 80% in less than 40 min? Do I have that right? Keep in mind - my diesel bill was ~$4500/yr previously. About what this costs.
Likely not my path - but far more reasonable than I thought - and it's not a hard no.
Perhaps I'll keep an eye on costs while I get my feet wet with level 2.

BTW - my electrical supply house gave me the head's up on the cheap outlets.
I bought the good one for this project. ($150 vs $9.99...)

Thanks all.
-CM

Do you have a Standard Range (SR) or Extendend Range (ER) battery? If SR then the max AC input is 48 Amps @ 240 Volts so 11.5 KW/H, the ER can do 80 Amps @ 240 Volts so 19.2 KW/H when using the AC - J1772 plug on a level 2 charger (OR the J1772 plug on the Ford Charger if you don't have the Sunrun Solar/Inverter setup). For DC charging the truck can pull up to something like 200 KWH BUT in reality it averages lower because the battery pushes back harder as it fills AND the charging rates flucuate either because other folks charge OR the truck pulls less to keep the battery cooler or as it get's closer to 90% etc etc.

Here's what Ford has for charging info:
https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/product/2022/f-150-lightning/pdf/F-150_Lightning_Tech_Specs_08102022.pdf

These guys did a real world test
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/ford-f-150-lightning-lariat-range-charging-test/

I have a 70 AMP DC Chargpoint charger the a local town put in and the cost is 1/2 (.15/KWH) of AC charging at home (.30/KWH) so I use that for the bulk of my charging and just the AC home charger to top off the battery.

 

[TaxmanHog]

House cleaning: (thanks for the welcome Taxman).
- I failed to mention: It's a 23, with tow package, ER, as I wanted the additional capacity for charging even if I didn't have a solution out of the gate - or Ford improved down the road with software. This forum helped me decide that was a must - and I raced to find a '23 to grab with other features I wanted.

Good choice, IMHO the 80-amp EVSE from Ford {Siemens} is OK, depending on the voltage spec {240/208v} you connect it to you're going to see about 18 to 16 KWH charging rate.

 

[brownhousechris]

A nema 14-80 outlet does not exist. The four pin outlet in your second picture is a locking Nema L14-30R. This is a 30 amp receptable. Also commonly found on generators. Your lightning probably has one in the bed. This could be used with an adapter but you need a charger which supports limiting the charge current to 24amps (80% of outlet rating for continuous loads). The ford mobil charger does not support this and the truck does not have a way to limit the charge current like on Teslas.

the first outlet is a Nema 6-50R this is a 50 amp outlet. Chargers are commonly available for this plug. I do not believe ford sells a 6-50 oem adapter for their mobile charger. Aftermarket 6-50 to 14-50 adapters do exist but I would not recommend that as a permanent solution. If you can add a properly sized neutral wire back to the panel the 6-50 receptable can be changed to a 14-50R.

I have this same L14-30 outlet in my barn, on a 30 amp breaker. I got a Grizzl-e dumb charger and set the dip switches to 20 amp I believe (it's easy to do, just the next lowest amperage below 30), and bought a cheap adapter to go to NEMA 14-50. It's not super fast, about 5 kWh, but for long term home charging it works great.

 

[Charlieman22]

Thanks.

Had a look at job site box today.
30amp breaker and outlet fed by 10awg wire. Neutral wire run - tho everything bonded in box so perhaps it’s Really no more than a ground.
Pics below for the interested.
Box is well worn, but solid.
looks to be Eaton.
Makes picking up 40amp easy.
will combine with quality 14-50 outlet - and I’m plug and play here.

shop will be next at the weekend.

 

[Charlieman22]

Thanks.

Had a look at job site box today.
30amp breaker and outlet fed by 10awg wire. Neutral wire run - tho everything bonded in box so perhaps it’s Really no more than a ground.
Pics below for the interested.
Box is well worn, but solid.
looks to be Eaton.
Makes picking up 40amp easy.
will combine with quality 14-50 outlet - and I’m plug and play here.

shop will be next at the weekend.

Edit: need to upgrade to eight gauge wire

 

[Ishkatan]

Hi all.
First post.
Day 2 with new truck.
Sitting at charging station typing with thumbs as I consider what my charging set up should be.
Little bit of a unique situation.
Looking for some /insights/suggestions/creative solutions from anyone that wants to weigh in.

Considerations:
I've got three places I spend most my time:
1. House. Rented. No charger, not easily installed. (Home charging unlikely option).
2. Have work shop with range of power and outlet configs.
: 208 3P (~124V/leg, 215V hot leg to hot leg).
: 123V & 215V 1P. The 215V uses 2 hot legs and a ground.
: Shop has a 3P transformer 7.5KVA that outputs 3P ~450V - split equally amongst the legs.
3. Work site. Temp elec pole. 200 amp service. 220 volt L14-80 outlet (could change).
4. Charger that came with the truck. Nema 14-50 plug 4 prong plug

So...
I'm pondering what a best set of solutions might be.
Need to get job site up and running for charging ASAP.
Can I swap out the 14-80 for a 14-50 outlet or do I need to downsize the breaker too if its really an 80 amp?

Interested to know what y'all would do given same set of circumstances.
Thanks!
-CM

Ford charger


Ford charger plug


My current oulets

Power pole at the work site

If it is a new 2023 with an Extended Range battery ask the Dealer to submit the request for your Ford charger. You will get an email and go to the Ford site to order your Charger Pro (The more expensive 80 amp one). It is free if you have the Extended Range battery but the dealer has to ask for it. If you got Standard Range battery you are SOL and would have to buy a charger. 48 AMP chargers can be had for under $400. (See Youtube.)

I would have that installed at the shop by an electrician at the shop if you own the shop. If you install it outside you could even sell time on the charger (but may want to turn it off when not there.) (What kind of shop?)

I am using a heavy duty extension cord and the mobile charger at home (15 amp outlet) until my PRO unit arrives - 3 days to get 30% power increase, but I am retired. Interestingly, the ends of the extension cord and the handle plugging into the truck get warm (not hot) but the rest of the cable path is cool.

If you are not driving far between the house and the shop simply 110 volts at each end may be enough.

 

[Charlieman22]

If it is a new 2023 with an Extended Range battery ask the Dealer to submit the request for your Ford charger. You will get an email and go to the Ford site to order your Charger Pro (The more expensive 80 amp one). It is free if you have the Extended Range battery but the dealer has to ask for it.

Ok. More good insights. This would be ideal for the shop.
Free is good!
(Mine is in fact ER.)
I’ve got the free adapter for Tesla ordered.
had not heard about upgraded charger.
Excellent.

Anything special I should tell them?
Sales dept?
(Side note: my experience - they bristle at “I’ve read on the forums” as an opening line… ironic as they “hadn’t heard” of my “sensor blocked”… but I digress).

I would have that installed at the shop by an electrician at the shop if you own the shop. If you install it outside you could even sell time on the charger (but may want to turn it off when not there.) (What kind of shop?)

Well - that’s a second vote for electrician- but it’s not really in my DNA.
I don’t care so much about the cost.
Its more about getting proficient at another trade.
Shop is 2k sw ft of fabrication space.
All sorts of fabrication/ restoration/customization.
Wood. Metal. 2 stroke vintage scooter tuning. Machine restoration. You name it.
(Tig. Mig. Cnc. Lathe…). 12 miles from house.

my goal here is to sort out a plan that takes even the thought of range anxiety/ planning out of play. Mind is already full with projects. Taking the time now to set up for robust charging so it’s just like brewing coffee in the morning.
Great tip on charger.
let me know if any subtleties on what I’m asking for.
Many thanks.

project…

 

[Armadillo]

Thanks.

Had a look at job site box today.
30amp breaker and outlet fed by 10awg wire. Neutral wire run - tho everything bonded in box so perhaps it’s Really no more than a ground.
Pics below for the interested.
Box is well worn, but solid.
looks to be Eaton.
Makes picking up 40amp easy.
will combine with quality 14-50 outlet - and I’m plug and play here.

shop will be next at the weekend.

Glad we could help. One quick comment. There is no real downside to using a 50amp breaker and 6awg wire. The cost difference is only a couple dollars 6awg vs 8awg for such a short run, the breakers should be the same cost. A 40 amp circuit is adequate for the included Ford charger but if you ever decide to upgrade to something like a J+ Booster 2, which is an adjustable mobile cord that can charge at 40 amps, you will be stuck at 32 amps on a 40 amp circuit. The larger 6awg wire will also help wick heat away from the receptacles contacts keeping them cooler. Again, not necessary, but I like to futureproof any work I do.

You are correct, the Ground (Grounding) and Neutral (Grounded Conductor) are bonded together at the Service Entrance. This is the only point in the electrical system where they should be connected together.

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