Battery Preconditioning.

[carys98]

One KWH is just a measure of energy used. He’s implying that it could be charging and heating at the same time I would guess.

All of the energy delivered to the truck has to either be dissipated or stored in the battery. Any heat produced is the energy that is dissipated. For example, if you put 12 kWh into the truck and the battery increases by 10 kWh then 2 kWh were dissipated as heat. You can’t store 10 and dissipate 5 if you only put in 12. If you figure out a way to do that you will become very rich.

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[luebri]

One KWH is just a measure of energy used. He’s implying that it could be charging and heating at the same time I would guess.

Not really implying. I’ve done tests with an OBD sensor and provided the real world data. kWh being pumped into the battery will also heat the battery. That is fact.

 

[luebri]

All of the energy delivered to the truck has to either be dissipated or stored in the battery. Any heat produced is the energy that is dissipated. For example, if you put 12 kWh into the truck and the battery increases by 10 kWh then 2 kWh were dissipated as heat. You can’t store 10 and dissipate 5 if you only put in 12. If you figure out a way to do that you will become very rich.

Read the thread with several tests and tell me why my conclusion is incorrect. I’m eager to learn.

https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/ideal-charging-practices.14066/post-294637

 

[NW Ontario Ford Lightning]

I just might try the portable generator.

I wonder about a portable battery - 'solar generator' like the bluetti or the ecoflow delta type of portable units. Say your parked for 8 hours per day and just want an L1 plug to maintain battery temperatures for you for that time.
From what I have seen so far (Very limited experience so far, had my truck a week) the low draw from being plugged in, but waiting for the charging schedule - the pack only draws a low 600-1000W to maintain temps. If you have a portable pack capable of 8-10kWh this may work for your application.
That all said, programming a departure time in FordPass should just use the battery pack to warm and prepare the truck for your set depatrure time - yes it will use some energy to do this, likely the same 8-10kW the portable would have supplied anyway I would think.

My own daily routine: Truck is plugged in as soon as I get home. L2 -24A x 240V but programmed to charge the truck later at 11:00pm to 7:00AM time period (low cost ToU utility rate 11-7 overnight).
The pre-condition is set to prepare the truck by 7:20 AM - I notice the truck at 7:20 is not at 90% SOC as set, it is normally at 87% -ie it stopped charging at 7:00, then used some energy to do the pre-condition until 7:20 (makes sense) and I leave for my daily routine.
The truck will normally be parked most of the day - other than a short trip to pick up some lunch - generally sits after lunch to 5:00pm Pre-condition set to prepare the truck for 4:55 pm - I start the truck at 5 and drive for 40 miniute to an hour depending on location that day.
Once home, plugged in right away, but scheduled charge is delayed until 11:00PM typically five hours later. I see from my energy monitoring system that last night the truck used 2.72kWh from 6:00Pm to 11:00Pm - I was outside part of that time and can hear the recirculation system doing something - I assume it is pulling some energy(2.72kWh) from the EV charger and maintaining the battery temps or managing them to suit the programmed 11:00Pm charging setting.
Tomorrow I will try to get a glimpse of the SOC just before the 4:55Pm pre-conditioning phase, to see what energy is lost to this process with the truck not-plugged in, and note the temperature.

 

[Firn]

Not really implying. I’ve done tests with an OBD sensor and provided the real world data. kWh being pumped into the battery will also heat the battery. That is fact.

Yes, due to internal resistance in the battery, energy used to charge will also result in energy expended as heat. That's not what is being said. The point is that it is not energy stored, not exactly. You are not increasing the chemical potential. There IS some capacity increase due to the raised temp, but much less than that amount of energy chemically stored, and it will dissapate.

 

[luebri]

Yes, due to internal resistance in the battery, energy used to charge will also result in energy expended as heat. That's not what is being said. The point is that it is not energy stored, not exactly. You are not increasing the chemical potential. There IS some capacity increase due to the raised temp, but much less than that amount of energy chemically stored, and it will dissapate.

Again, All I am saying and my tests have shown is the act of charging (inputting kWh into the battery) will raise battery temp as a bi product (agree that my understanding is due to internal resistance). I never stated anything more or less than that.

 

[Firn]

Again, All I am saying and my tests have shown is the act of charging (inputting kWh into the battery) will raise battery temp as a bi product (agree that my understanding is due to internal resistance). I never stated anything more or less than that.

Statements, and using that statement to refute another point are two things.

He claimed that you can't put 12kwh in, get 10 kwh in charging and 5kwh in heat. You refuted that. But he is right, by his statement, getting more out than put in would violate the laws of physics.

But, to support your statement, to raise 1800lbs of aluminum 10 degrees F would take around 1.2kwh (if I can trust Google AI since I'm not doing that math right now. Chatgpt says 1.5kwh for 1800lbs lithium batteries).

...

Well crap, this is fun.
Again relying on chatgpt because I'm not doing this math right now.
Raising the temp of the Lightning battery 10 degrees will raise its potential .5 to 2%, or .6kwh to 2.6kwh. Roughly speaking, before the heat dissipates, you get some, if not all, that heat back as range...

 

[luebri]

He claimed that you can't put 12kwh in, get 10 kwh in charging and 5kwh in heat. You refuted that.

I never refuted his example. I also never said or meant to imply saying what his example is trying to say I did say. My link to my previous test stated the following... using REAL WORLD TESTING DATA.

Test #1 - EVSE 120v Charging with Preconditioning Set

- AMPRoad EVSE set to 16 AMP
- Charging at 11.2 amps (per Lightning 120v limitations)
- Plugged in at 9:38 PM (65% SOC, 71.65 kWh)
- Per Car Scanner OBD App Start Temp: HVB Min 41 F/ HVB Max 42.8
- Unplugged at 7:07 AM (12.55kWh used per charger display) (70.5% SOC, 82.63kWH)
- Temp: HVB Min 53.6 F/ HVB Max 55.4
- Preconditioning was set to occur at 6:55AM
- Garage temp per Truck reading was 43 F at start and at Finish.

(I can attach screenshots if you need to see my work, but did not feel that was necessary as I am not worried about my semester grade)

My conclusion: Even 120v charging makes a temperature difference. Since Only 1.5kWh was "lost" between what the charger used and what the battery gained I would conclude that 120v was enough to warm the battery a decent amount ~12.5F.

	15A / 120v
Soc End	82.63
Soc Start	71.65
Gained kWh	10.98
KWh used	12.55
Lost kWh	1.57
Lost kWh %	12.51%

 

[Firn]

I never refuted his example. I also never said or meant to imply saying what his example is trying to say I did say. My link to my previous test stated the following... using REAL WORLD TESTING DATA.

Test #1 - EVSE 120v Charging with Preconditioning Set

- AMPRoad EVSE set to 16 AMP
- Charging at 11.2 amps (per Lightning 120v limitations)
- Plugged in at 9:38 PM (65% SOC, 71.65 kWh)
- Per Car Scanner OBD App Start Temp: HVB Min 41 F/ HVB Max 42.8
- Unplugged at 7:07 AM (12.55kWh used per charger display) (70.5% SOC, 82.63kWH)
- Temp: HVB Min 53.6 F/ HVB Max 55.4
- Preconditioning was set to occur at 6:55AM
- Garage temp per Truck reading was 43 F at start and at Finish.

(I can attach screenshots if you need to see my work, but did not feel that was necessary as I am not worried about my semester grade)

My conclusion: Even 120v charging makes a temperature difference. Since Only 1.5kWh was "lost" between what the charger used and what the battery gained I would conclude that 120v was enough to warm the battery a decent amount ~12.5F.

	15A / 120v
Soc End	82.63
Soc Start	71.65
Gained kWh	10.98
KWh used	12.55
Lost kWh	1.57
Lost kWh %	12.51%

Ya'll arnt talking around the same thing, but when someone says something you keep refuting them or claiming they are refuting everything you ever said.

Nobody here ever said heating does NOT happen or that you didn't have heating. But when you respond to someone's statement with a negative, that itself is ALSO a statement and gives more meaning.

This isn't "yes, agreed", and by responding as such you ARE refuting his statement.

 

[luebri]

Ya'll arnt talking around the same thing,

I guess we can agree on this.

To be 100% perfectly clear. All I have meant to say in this thread is....

The act of charging the battery will also heat the battery as a bi product. Plain and simple.

If anything else was inferred from my comments or the way in which I replied I apologize for not internetting good.

 

[Iroc34a]

I wonder about a portable battery - 'solar generator' like the bluetti or the ecoflow delta type of portable units. Say your parked for 8 hours per day and just want an L1 plug to maintain battery temperatures for you for that time.
From what I have seen so far (Very limited experience so far, had my truck a week) the low draw from being plugged in, but waiting for the charging schedule - the pack only draws a low 600-1000W to maintain temps. If you have a portable pack capable of 8-10kWh this may work for your application.
That all said, programming a departure time in FordPass should just use the battery pack to warm and prepare the truck for your set depatrure time - yes it will use some energy to do this, likely the same 8-10kW the portable would have supplied anyway I would think.

My own daily routine: Truck is plugged in as soon as I get home. L2 -24A x 240V but programmed to charge the truck later at 11:00pm to 7:00AM time period (low cost ToU utility rate 11-7 overnight).
The pre-condition is set to prepare the truck by 7:20 AM - I notice the truck at 7:20 is not at 90% SOC as set, it is normally at 87% -ie it stopped charging at 7:00, then used some energy to do the pre-condition until 7:20 (makes sense) and I leave for my daily routine.
The truck will normally be parked most of the day - other than a short trip to pick up some lunch - generally sits after lunch to 5:00pm Pre-condition set to prepare the truck for 4:55 pm - I start the truck at 5 and drive for 40 miniute to an hour depending on location that day.
Once home, plugged in right away, but scheduled charge is delayed until 11:00PM typically five hours later. I see from my energy monitoring system that last night the truck used 2.72kWh from 6:00Pm to 11:00Pm - I was outside part of that time and can hear the recirculation system doing something - I assume it is pulling some energy(2.72kWh) from the EV charger and maintaining the battery temps or managing them to suit the programmed 11:00Pm charging setting.
Tomorrow I will try to get a glimpse of the SOC just before the 4:55Pm pre-conditioning phase, to see what energy is lost to this process with the truck not-plugged in, and note the temperature.

I thought about this too . My generator being 220v running for say .5 hours before I leave for my drive home. Would probably be enough to warm / precondition the battery. It was 0° f last night. The battery was just above the bottom line on the temp gage. Doesn't seem to hurt anything except showing only 80% acceleration power available. But taking it easy anyway. But of course next week will be in the high 50's anyway.

 

[Heliian]

~42F to to ~54F over a 9-hour period of 120v charging.

That's downright balmy but yes, charging creates heat. Below freezing you'll see much less to nil. 240v level 2 will warm the battery when it's cold actually cold.

 

[luebri]

That's downright balmy but yes, charging creates heat. Below freezing you'll see much less to nil. 240v level 2 will warm the battery when it's cold actually cold.

See post 25, I don’t have the detailed data, but being on 120v in subzero or near subzero conditions for six days, was definitely beneficial from a heat standpoint vs nothing.

However, definitely not nearly as good as being on 240v, certainly agree there

 

[carys98]

I never refuted his example. I also never said or meant to imply saying what his example is trying to say I did say. My link to my previous test stated the following... using REAL WORLD TESTING DATA.

Test #1 - EVSE 120v Charging with Preconditioning Set

- AMPRoad EVSE set to 16 AMP
- Charging at 11.2 amps (per Lightning 120v limitations)
- Plugged in at 9:38 PM (65% SOC, 71.65 kWh)
- Per Car Scanner OBD App Start Temp: HVB Min 41 F/ HVB Max 42.8
- Unplugged at 7:07 AM (12.55kWh used per charger display) (70.5% SOC, 82.63kWH)
- Temp: HVB Min 53.6 F/ HVB Max 55.4
- Preconditioning was set to occur at 6:55AM
- Garage temp per Truck reading was 43 F at start and at Finish.

(I can attach screenshots if you need to see my work, but did not feel that was necessary as I am not worried about my semester grade)

My conclusion: Even 120v charging makes a temperature difference. Since Only 1.5kWh was "lost" between what the charger used and what the battery gained I would conclude that 120v was enough to warm the battery a decent amount ~12.5F.

	15A / 120v
Soc End	82.63
Soc Start	71.65
Gained kWh	10.98
KWh used	12.55
Lost kWh	1.57
Lost kWh %	12.51%

I absolutely agree that charging a battery will warm it. I was just surprised that less than 2 kWh could warm it that much. Based on what @Firn posted above that seems to actually be correct. I have been resisting the urge to go to the attic and pull out my old Heat Transfer text book so I’m glad that AI could do the work. Luckily while I was working I always had a Mechanical Engineer nearby who specialized in thermal analysis so I could get the answer I needed by walking down the hall. Since I’m retired I no longer have that option. The main point of my post still stands, that the same energy cannot both be converted to heat and stored in the battery.

 

[Zprime29]

Two points being discussed that it looks like everyone agrees on.

1. If the EVSE delivers 2kWh to a battery, the battery capacity cannot increase by 2kWh and increase in temp from heat. There is some finite amount of that 2kWh that was lost as heat.

2. Charging on L1 increases the temp of the battery via heat generated from the charging process. It does not activate the heater that L2 charging would.

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