DC Charging Peak Speed: Extended 155kW, Standard 120kW

[LightningShow]

A charge curve would be helpful..we all don't have the option of stopping at exactly 15% or charging to 80%. You have to work stops along a road trip.

Lets say you need to stop for lunch and you can either stop at 70% battery or drive a bit further down the road and charge at say 40%(or 30%). In either case you're gonna spend 15min at a fast food joint to grab a burger and take a restroom break.

It would be good to know if the curve (charging speed) drops at 50%, or if it continues at a fairly good clip to 80%(even 90%). This helps you get the max power during your stop so you can reduce dwell time on down the road.

This is the right question. If the charge rate drops to 50kW at 70% then it can either change your route planning, force you to stop twice or make a longer stop to get from 70-90% as opposed to waiting until later and stopping for a 10-30% charge.

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[greenne]

This is the right question. If the charge rate drops to 50kW at 70% then it can either change your route planning, force you to stop twice or make a longer stop to get from 70-90% as opposed to waiting until later and stopping for a 10-30% charge.

What's best is a decent speed but a flat charge "curve" for as long as possible. The early MachE charging dropped off a cliff above after 80%. After Ford was satisfied the battery could take the expected "normal" usage without issue they raised that protective buffer to 90% so the faster charging speeds could continue to 90% for those longer road trips.

My hope is with the Lightning Ford is playing it safe with the first batch and will make improvements with time...

1. Greater motor efficiency(more range)
2. Less protective buffer--more usable battery capacity(more range)
3. Faster charging speed
4. Flat charging curve--less slowing down at the top end as you approach 100%

 

[adoublee]

You don't need to see a charge curve.

The peak speeds here don't change from the DC charge times they already published, which is ;

44 minutes from 15-80% for standard
41 minutes from 15-80% for Extended

I think you meant 51 minutes on Extended, from the early technical specifications.

Another note here is that those technical specifications indicated a 240VAC charge rate of 30 miles per hour (or technically 30 miles in 1 hour). There was no differentiation between ER with or without max tow option in those specs. We now see from EPA labels that Platinum (ER+max tow included) charges at 240VAC from empty to full in 9.3 hours. This would be a maintained average of 32.3 miles per hour for the Platinum at 300 miles range. If the same charge time applies to ER Lariat with max tow option included, this would be a maintained 34.4 miles per hour - a 15% beat of the originally published 1-hour rate in that category.

My point being is, Ford may also be able to improve on the DCFC number - especially with max tow cooling. There is currently no reason to believe they are behind Rivian in DCFC experience with both still making changes (though TFL test was a production vehicle).

 

[RonTCat]

Rivian fully out designed Ford here. Rivian's are rated to peak ~210kW (on 400v). Rivians are still rough in terms of charging curves, and we'll need to wait for Out of Spec reviews to show his charging curve which I expect to be the best test yet.

I guess Ford could play the marketing game too, and set the Lightning to charge at 211kW for 30 seconds. A 15 second software update, and Ford just outdesigned Rivian.

I would recommend researching Li-ion battery charging. You will find charging is where almost all the damage happens, mostly cathode damage which shortens battery capacity and life. Different cathode and cell designs and materials can improve the situation, but not in a major way without some undesirable offset, like lower cell energy density.


TL;DR - charging faster lowers your battery life. A lot.

 

[Tony Burgh]

Sounds like the latest version of dyno racing.

 

[FlasherZ]

Like Tesla, perhaps Ford will be able to improve this in the future when/if they determine that they can push it more safely. My first Model S could only do 90 kW in 2012/2013, then 120, 135, and 150 kW... Model 3 and model Y go far beyond that for short bursts.

These are all 400V architectures.

 

[Texas Dan]

You don't need to see a charge curve.

The peak speeds here don't change from the DC charge times they already published, which is ;

44 minutes from 15-80% for standard
41 minutes from 15-80% for Extended

I feel that I need to remind everyone that this charging information is specific to 150 kW chargers according to the Ford literature. I have not yet seen any information on what the charge rate will be connected to a 350 kW (800V) charger. We don’t even know if the 150L can accept 800V charging power.

We really do need somebody to publish the charging curves for the 150L when connected to different power level chargers (Tom Moloughney, are you reading this?). Anybody that has done any long distance EV driving knows how important these charging power curves are. Planning your charging sessions around your charging power curves can save you a lot of time and money on long EV trips.

 

[shutterbug]

We don’t even know if the 150L can accept 800V charging power.

Pretty sure it can. It will just be limited to 150kW.

 

[adoublee]

I feel that I need to remind everyone that this charging information is specific to 150 kW chargers according to the Ford literature. I have not yet seen any information on what the charge rate will be connected to a 350 kW (800V) charger. We don’t even know if the 150L can accept 800V charging power.

We really do need somebody to publish the charging curves for the 150L when connected to different power level chargers (Tom Moloughney, are you reading this?). Anybody that has done any long distance EV driving knows how important these charging power curves are. Planning your charging sessions around your charging power curves can save you a lot of time and money on long EV trips.

The Home Integration System hardware is rated to receive 290VDC to 413VDC from the truck for home back-up. Pretty sure we're getting 400VDC nominal.

 

[beatle]

Porsche (800v) actually has an option to DCFC at a reduced rate to preserve battery health.

For reference, my Model S P985D charges from 15-80% at an average of ~62 kw. Granted that's a smaller battery than even the SR Lightning, but I've still not found it to be problematic. It gives me a chance to stop and have a meal, even if I walk a block or two. I generally only stop to charge once or twice in a trip. If I stop a second time, it is rarely longer than it takes for me to use the restroom.

I did stop once to supercharge from 20-90% and it took 67m. Average was only 49kw over that charge period.

 

[Texas Dan]

Porsche (800v) actually has an option to DCFC at a reduced rate to preserve battery health.

For reference, my Model S P985D charges from 15-80% at an average of ~62 kw. Granted that's a smaller battery than even the SR Lightning, but I've still not found it to be problematic. It gives me a chance to stop and have a meal, even if I walk a block or two. I generally only stop to charge once or twice in a trip. If I stop a second time, it is rarely longer than it takes for me to use the restroom.

I did stop once to supercharge from 20-90% and it took 67m. Average was only 49kw over that charge period.

You are assuming that most people would find lower charging speeds acceptable. There are several very big problems with your assumption related to the F150L. First, as an early EV adopter you are willing to justify and compensate for the time spent at charging stations but people that are used to spending only five minutes filling up their ICEs will have a hard time justifying the additional time spent at EV charging stations.

Second, you are comparing cars that are designed to be as light as possible to a truck designed to carry 2,000 pounds and to tow 10,000 pounds. Not only does the F150L need a massive battery just to provide an acceptable range but carrying or pulling a load will require many more charging stops. At least for now, charging speed is king when it comes to attracting ICE truck owners to the 150L and all the other big EVs coming out.

 

[jaykoolzboy]

Lets put 800v in this perspective

I. Vehicles that support 800V

A. GM Hummer EV - Build from scratch dedicated EV platform (BTW, I am still awaiting for my production date for reserving Humvee 5 mins into the public announcement, well, its selling for 200K ADM , i can wait little longer I guess0)

B. Porsche Taycan and Taycan Turismo -- Build from Scratch dedicated EV Platform for Porsche ,


C. Hyundai and Kia cousins - Ioniq 5 and EV6 ---- Again build from scratch dedicated platform .

The pattern is , unless it's a build from scratch dedicated EV platform (for the next 6+ years), it's not a feasible approach to support 800V natively. It's probably going to cost Ford another x amount of billions and xx month of delay for 800V to be integrated into existing F150 platform. I think Ford made the right decision on this . F150L II will definitely support 800V since it's going to be a dedicated build from scratch EV platform.

 

[gorwell]

There is currently no reason to believe they are behind Rivian in DCFC experience with both still making changes (though TFL test was a production vehicle).

They are behind b/c Ford has stated they will only max out at 150kW, unless they are withholding information. No reason to do so. Rivian has stated their max is 210kW.

Rivian already pushed out a software update last week to improve charge curve.

On the latest Software it will hold (at least) 150kW charge until ~60% (vs dropping ~25% on TFL video).

This is a still from Out of Specs livestream where he is charging the car on a charger that will only max out at 150kW (the charger is limited, not the Truck).

It held 150kW from 0-60%

 

[beatle]

You are assuming that most people would find lower charging speeds acceptable. There are several very big problems with your assumption related to the F150L. First, as an early EV adopter you are willing to justify and compensate for the time spent at charging stations but people that are used to spending only five minutes filling up their ICEs will have a hard time justifying the additional time spent at EV charging stations.

Second, you are comparing cars that are designed to be as light as possible to a truck designed to carry 2,000 pounds and to tow 10,000 pounds. Not only does the F150L need a massive battery just to provide an acceptable range but carrying or pulling a load will require many more charging stops. At least for now, charging speed is king when it comes to attracting ICE truck owners to the 150L and all the other big EVs coming out.

I'm not assuming anything or saying that 150kw should be good enough for everyone forever in all use cases. I was sharing my own experience charging at an even lower rate than the F150L and not coming to tears seeing double digit kw charging rates. I don't know how your comment about weight has anything to do with my charging experience. Even accounting for the higher driving efficiency of the Model S, it still puts in fewer "miles per hour" than the Lightning's charge rate. Further, I've done many road trips in my ICE vehicles as well. You still need to stop for meals, bathroom breaks, etc. However, while stopping to charge, you plug in and walk away. You don't fill up for 5 minutes, move the vehicle, and then go in to eat. You can do it all in one shot so the time spent stopped can be equal. When does EV "early adoption" stop anyway? When you learn that charging speed isn't king?

 

[jefro]

Currently every time you attach an EVSE to the car, the car and charger will negotiate. It will only negotiate to the best program on the vehicle not what the charger can produce.

If one had a choice they might consider the higher chargers if for only the slight ability to provide more power. Many claim the lower chargers won't deliver rated numbers.

Every EV maker uses some sales pitch like 20-80% times or 10-80% as they all know that is what will seem the least amount of time you have to wait.

And you will have to wait and wait and wait while charging the F150 EV until they develop some better technology.

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