Disabling Vehicle Connectivity removes functionality

[djwildstar]

This really is about the definition of "share." Providing a datapoint to enable a function is a completely different proposition to providing a datapoint that the recipient gets to keep, sell, or build into a product [...]

Yes -- this is largely what I mean when I say that I want to see better selectivity and granularity. I want to be able to say that this data can be shared for those purposes and no others.

It is also about what happens when money and lawyers get involved:

• More than in many other industries, automakers data flows are cobbled together out of multiple services run by multiple independent companies -- Ford, AT&T, Sirius, Telenav, Amazon, Google, Electrify America, Shell, ChargePoint, EVgo, EVConect, and FLO come to mind for just the Lightning, and there are probably more behind the scenes.
• I'm sure that making data available to third parties helps an automaker's bottom line, so there is the profit motive to get the most permissive terms possible from the user.
• I'm also confident that corporate lawyers looking at these data flows get nervous about potential liability should a bad actor at a third party do something untoward. The carmaker would be the obvious deep pocket to sue ("you said you'd prevent our data from being used that way, but failed to do so"). SO if the data-sharing agreement is as broad as possible ("we can use anything we collect for any purpose"), then there's little chance of an expensive class-action suit.

Figuring all of this out is difficult, and carmakers are bound to take the easy route unless and until they either face significant consumer blow-back or are required to do so by legislation or regulation. Even then, they are sure to complain that the task is herculean (see the cable industry's reaction to being told they have to provide detailed itemized billing).

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[ctuan13]

There are no features in FordPass that require Ford to keep a history of users' location data. There are no features in FordPass that require Ford to sell the data either.

I needs to be illegal to tie the permission to sell your personal data with unrelated features. It should be illegal to sell other people's personal data at all. There will be an onslaught of propaganda as these laws come up for vote and it's important to spread the word as widely as possible that there is absolutely no technical reason that your data become a tradeable commodity in order to implement any of the features that users care about.

The only people in favor of the sale of personal data are people who are profiting from it, and people who misunderstand what they're getting out of the deal. And that profit comes from somewhere.



This is a dangerous attitude. If you don't like it SPEAK UP. If you don't like it, explain over and over and over and over again to people who don't think it's a big deal why they are very, very wrong. Nothing is a foregone conclusion.

Vehicles can be connected without giving up the rights to your data. The manufacturer is maintaining the rights to the data they provide to your car, after all. And they have an army of lawyers to defend it if you try to use it for your own profit.

You can have connected nav. You can have BlueCruise. You can have Waze and Spotify and OTA updates and parking space location reminders and phone as a key and all of that. None of it requires keeping or selling your data.

I agree with you, my man, 100%. It's just that I know how corporations are and I know how governments are, so true privacy in the case of the Lightning means disconnecting the TCU or TCU antenna (you can reference my video below)

Otherwise unfortunately, you'll have to accept Ford being up in your digital bootycheeks

 

[ivan256]

I agree with you, my man, 100%. It's just that I know how corporations are and I know how governments are, so true privacy in the case of the Lightning means disconnecting the TCU or TCU antenna (you can reference my video below)

Otherwise unfortunately, you'll have to accept Ford being up in your digital bootycheeks

It shouldn't have to be like that.

However factual discussion of the issue is apparently too political for this forum, so I'm out.

 

[theUNSTABLE]

I agree with you, my man, 100%. It's just that I know how corporations are and I know how governments are, so true privacy in the case of the Lightning means disconnecting the TCU or TCU antenna (you can reference my video below)

Otherwise unfortunately, you'll have to accept Ford being up in your digital bootycheeks

Yeah, I also agree it shouldn't have to be like that....but now you've got me going down the rabbit hole of seeing if it would be possible to re-program / update the server it talks to and redirect it to my own things.

I found https://freematics.com/ which is OBD telematics, but open source.
However if there would be a way to either:
1) Reprogram TCM/TCU
2) Update SIM to a custom personal owned one (https://www.hologram.io/)
3) Hijack the data and route it to your own thing

That would be useful

 

[ctuan13]

Yeah, I also agree it shouldn't have to be like that....but now you've got me going down the rabbit hole of seeing if it would be possible to re-program / update the server it talks to and redirect it to my own things.

I found https://freematics.com/ which is OBD telematics, but open source.
However if there would be a way to either:
1) Reprogram TCM/TCU
2) Update SIM to a custom personal owned one (https://www.hologram.io/)
3) Hijack the data and route it to your own thing

That would be useful

See now this is the sorta thing that interests me, I would 100% be for some sort of system to bypass the data stream or even use it for my own purposes. I just wonder if you'd need to have two TCUs if you wanted one to be for privacy and one to still allow for OTAs or maybe even if you bypass the telemetry part of the module, OTAs still work.

I dunno, this is all way out of my knowledge base, but I'd love to be involved if someone with more technical knowledge is interested!

 

[theUNSTABLE]

Yeah, that is what I'm researching right now.
Seeing if I can find a way to bypass whatever backend server the TCM/TCU is using to redirect it to my own.
Even if that is how I get OTA updates, there should be a way to mirror it

 

[ctuan13]

Yeah, that is what I'm researching right now.
Seeing if I can find a way to bypass whatever backend server the TCM/TCU is using to redirect it to my own.
Even if that is how I get OTA updates, there should be a way to mirror it

Well please keep us all updated and feel free to PM me if you have any questions since I've had some experience at least with the Lightning with the module and disabling it and it's effects.

 

[richl025]

It would be nice to have a constrained communications option @Ford Motor Company

Unfortunately, there's no money in that option for Ford. There is quite a bit of money in them selling our data.

 

[CRAIGC540]

I care, I just don't really have a choice.

So, when I do crimes, I use a car with a carburetor. Or a Prius if I gotta sneak up on a mother******.

Weeds was so funny!!
I need to rewatch that..

 

[Amps]

Serious question: Do you carry cellular devices? If so, how do you deal with the privacy issues on those devices?

My first trip through the settings, I turned all the connectivity off in the truck long enough to figure out that it handicapped some truck features I valued. Simultaneously, it seemed kind of pointless if I was going to carry an iPhone along with me.

Posted wirelessly through a VPN.

 

[ctuan13]

Serious question: Do you carry cellular devices? If so, how do you deal with the privacy issues on those devices?

My first trip through the settings, I turned all the connectivity off in the truck long enough to figure out that it handicapped some truck features I valued. Simultaneously, it seemed kind of pointless if I was going to carry an iPhone along with me.

Posted wirelessly through a VPN.

This "bUt yOuR pHoNe" argument is so tiresome. Yes, I'm well aware of my phone and it's privacy concerns, but I make that concession to use the Google services that I choose to, while balancing against the intrusions I refuse to allow. The difference is this is a vehicle, where the manufacturer isn't a tech company like Google and has pathetic if any degrees of cyber security. So a hacker or virus is more likely to be able to easily compromise Ford systems than Google systems.

But even if your response to that is, "well Google is a bigger target!" Let's think about this. If my Google account or phone gets hacked, what happens? My emails are compromised, maybe my photos are stolen and if I have any compromising photos, I get blackmailed or a ransomware attack holds my stuff hostage unless I pay an exorbitant fee in bitcoin.

What happens if a virus or hacker compromises the drivetrain of my truck? I die, my passengers die, or my vehicle might strike and kill someone else. The cost of a system failure is far higher in 3.5 ton truck than on my phone.

In this case I'm not that concerned about privacy as I am about cyber security. But even with privacy, the fact that Google knows a lot about me, is zero justification to freely relinquish my data to Ford to sell to who knows, and potential allow to be compromised.

 

[TaxmanHog]

However factual discussion of the issue is apparently too political for this forum, so I'm out.

It's disappointing to lose valuable members of the forum.

Folks, please keep the conversation reasonable, forum staff do have to maintain a certain level of quality, it's not the subject that's concerning but how we present our points of view, keep it classy, BTW, I'm not the only one reviewing posts and responding to member reports.

 

[bub]

I discovered the same thing myself.
I would be more willing to just ditch the fordpass app to avoid giving away so much of my data if the truck could display the charge rate.

I'm interested in any developments you make.

 

[theUNSTABLE]

Just going to comment here for the people following
I had so much information I just decided to make a new post, which can be found here: https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/lightningrod-better-charge-logs.16807/

Short answer for privacy specific:
You can do it, but you either need to get and write your own implementation for an OBD reader
Hijack the data going into / out of the TCM/TCU to redirect it to your own.... and that is IF it is unencrypted.

However, my link above about LightningROD, my solution to having my own data, requires the modem so by extension Ford will still have it.

Sad timeline for privacy

 

[ctuan13]

I discovered the same thing myself.
I would be more willing to just ditch the fordpass app to avoid giving away so much of my data if the truck could display the charge rate.

I'm interested in any developments you make.

I have my TCU disconnected at all times, except when updates are needed. I'm able to see charge rates easily and in real time with my OBD2 dongle and the car scanner app.

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