Farley believes he knows how to beat the Chinese on EVs

[Oafy44]

No matter how you cut it huge batteries to get mediocre ranges will never sway the towing market. Great, GM put a 200kwh battery in, now you can drive 150 miles towing instead of 100, when you tow. And as a tradeoff you had to nearly double the single most expensive part, and you get to drive a 10,000 beast around all the time.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again, an EXTERNAL range extender is what is needed. A self contained modular unit that can be mounted in the bed or on the hitch, or also mounted or incorporated into the trailer. Something you can lend, rent, or borrow.

Bev truck for when not towing, and high range when you are. Oh, and it can be integrated into your trailer and act as a range extender AND a very efficient generator. Make it duel fuel and it's even better.

telsa will have one for the cyber truck for $16k. Plus a range extender probably would need a forklift to put in the bed/take off.

I have an f350 and the thing about towing is you want a heavy vehicle. 10k truck towing 10k items is better then a 6k truck towing 10k items.
Not saying I want an EV to tow 10k and go 400 miles on a tow but 150 miles vs 80-100 is 50% increase and gives the customer very nice cushion .

most companies / customers would feel comfortable at -150 range towing / but like me - wouldn’t feel overly confident on 80-100 for the day.

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[Firn]

telsa will have one for the cyber truck for $16k. Plus a range extender probably would need a forklift to put in the bed/take off.

I have an f350 and the thing about towing is you want a heavy vehicle. 10k truck towing 10k items is better then a 6k truck towing 10k items.
Not saying I want an EV to tow 10k and go 400 miles on a tow but 150 miles vs 80-100 is 50% increase and gives the customer very nice cushion .

most companies / customers would feel comfortable at -150 range towing / but like me - wouldn’t feel overly confident on 80-100 for the day.

One hour of charging for two hours of driving will always be an issue, especially for companies.

I don't think weight is an issue. The lightning is over 7,000 lbs and now we are talking F250/F350 that gets 300+ in range unloaded (my 300mile range still needs occasional charge for "normal" driving).

Fair point about the Cybertruck but the Cybertruck has a $16k battery, that can only be mounted by a dealer, has to take up the whole bed, and doesn't provide power to anything else. That's a fair bit different that an external generator.

I don't think it would take a forklift. It won't be light, it would at least be a small 3 or 4 cylinder engine with a cooling system. However an aluminum 4 cylinder with the generator components integrated into the crankcase, and the fuel being external, should not be crazy heavy. The output will need to be fairly high but it doesn't have to accelerate a truck, it just has to stay even with the average consumption. A small hand driven lift truck would likely work.

 

[Grumpy2]

I don't think it would take a forklift.

I think it easily could be added and removed using external detachable jacks just has large slide in campers use.

 

[MaintGrl]

Maverick BEV would rock!

Ya, I miss the size of my 06 Taco 4x4. Even though I drove a truck the same size or a lil bigger than the Lightning, I still have to be conscious of the size of this truck, something mid size would be great.

 

[Altivec]

That does sound like a pretty bad experience. But is that a series hybrid like the EREVs being discussed, which have the full EV drivetrain and a completely separate generator setup, or a parallel hybrid which does have the ridiculous complexity you describe? I suspect the latter. EREVs are much simpler/more modular.

Personally I think EREVs *for trucks* make a lot of sense specifically for the towing scenario. Yes 90% of the time you (we) are just putt putting around town or commuting to work, in which case you can be on battery 100% of the time. But for those few times a year you haul the RV for a few days, having that extra range in your pocket would be a life saver. You can still effectively have the ICE truck, but also the BEV for all your day to day. I do think they could be the gateway drug to going full electric for a lot of "truck people".

But that's just my opinion. The market will decide.

I am not sure exactly what type of hybrid it is. I am assuming it's like an EREV. It's got a EV plug in outlet that fills a 16KW battery that gave me 37 miles on pure EV when new. now down to 27 miles after only 50k miles. Then it's got a generator that kicks in once your range is done giving you hundreds of miles more of range on gas. There is no transmission, so again I believe this would be how an EREV would work but correct me if I'm wrong.

That's part of the problem, each hybrid is slightly different on how they do things so it becomes very specialized to repair. I went to a GM service centre and they said they have a certified technician. All they did was stick their computer on it and charge me $400CAN to tell me what I already know (because I have an OBD reader that told me). battery coolant low even though it isn't (which was preventing the battery to charge). I was assuming they would at least be smart enough to say it could be a faulty sensor. nope. He just reset the code and said if it happens again you probably need to change the battery. Won't be going there ever again.

Finally found an independent Tech and they were much better. They got that same code and changed the sensor, it worked for a couple of days but then got the same problem. Had to bring it in and he looked at it for a week. Had to drop the battery, check all harnesses and cables and couldn't find anything wrong. He said one of the harnesses had a bit of corrosion on it so he replaced it. Thousands of dollars later, it looks like he fixed it. Now days later a new error and the engine won't kick in. Very frustrating.

Again... biggest issue is there are very few that have the knowledge to work on these specialized systems so you are forced to be at their mercy and pay them the big bucks.

I haven't even discussed all the issues of normal operation. Like stale gas, oil changes even though you hardly run the engine, force running your engine so the seals don't get dry, and to top it off major degradation of the battery because its small so you run through cycles like there is no tomorrow.

I bought a hybrid over an EV at that time thinking the same way you are. Best of Both worlds and if I ever need to go long distances I can go without worry. I found out the hard way that I was wrong. You need to really analyze your use of that vehicle. Our car hardly ever goes long distances, so it's essentially an EV with a load of needless engine related things to worry about. It's way, way worth it to stop at a charging station a few times a year if you don't do a lot of long distances travel.

But what if you do a lot of long distance travelling. If you do, that means you will hardly gain any benefits from the battery. You will need to go to charging stations and gas stations. You will destroy your smaller battery in no time. At 50k miles, mine has degraded by 25%. You can't just say I will ignore the battery either, it is required regardless if your engine works great or not. So be prepared for a 50K charge after 100k miles (in other words be ready to replace the truck because it won't be worth it)... and on top of that, you've been still paying for gas that whole time. So again, what are you planning to gain from an EREV truck?

There may be a use case that works for some, but I am staying as far away from these things as possible. If I go back to doing a lot of long distance driving, I am getting an ICE truck.

 

[MotoGary]

Dear Jim Farley,

You recently said the following regarding large EV trucks:

“These customers have very demanding use cases for electric vehicles: They tow, they go off-road, they take long road trips. These vehicles have worse aerodynamics and they’re very heavy, which means very large and expensive batteries."

So, Jim, if you knew all of this, why would you market the Lightning as though it were capable of effortlessly doing all of these things (and more)? The reality is that, for most people, the Lightning is NOT a suitable vehicle for towing, off-roading, and long road trips. Sure, the truck CAN do these things. But the truth is that these are all the Lightning's most glaring weaknesses! So why on earth would you hype up all the weaknesses in your marketing campaign?!!

The Lighting is an amazing vehicle. But it's not amazing for the reasons you told us in your TV ads. Don't show us an EV truck towing a huge trailer and adventuring in the National Parks in my state of Utah. The real adventure is trip planning just to get to that scenic overlook where you videoed the ad! Here's a tip: If you can't really drive your fancy (and expensive) new EV truck to the ad shoot location, but you have to haul the EV truck on top of an ICE truck and then hoist it with a helicopter and drop it to the spot from the air.... You're peddling a huge lie and might want to re-think your entire marketing campaign!

Early adopters are prone to believe the hype and want to be among the first to put it to the test. When the product doesn't live up to the hype, those customers will be your fiercest critics. It's the classic result of "Overpromising and Under-Delivering". Jim, you severely over-promised. But worse, you did it to the wrong customers!

I suggest you hire product development and marketing people from Apple before even designing your next EV truck.

Sincerely,

The customer you should have marketed to all along because I never expected it to tow very far, or go off-roading, or cross-country road-tripping.

 

[htobin]

Im with you. None of it makes sense.
It’s more like they are bending to the narrative “FORD IS LOSING BILLIONS TO EVs!!!!”
I love this truck.

Me too. Best truck I have ever owned. Simply blows my mind it has not been a great success but I guess it’s pretty hard to judge a new market. Sure there are issues and some difficulties with service but I’m sure glad I have mine

 

[Effonefiddy Lightning]

For all of the negative comments about a certain CEO and how he runs his EV company it seems he had it right.

 

[Ragman]

I foresee Lightnings becoming the JK Jeep of the truck world. In 3-5 years an aftermarket 200 kw solid state pack will come out for $20k. People will pickup a SR used for $15k add the new pack and be thrilled.

The packs don’t look like a bad swap just connectors. Reminds me of an SSD hard drive upgrade.

 

[Firn]

I am not sure exactly what type of hybrid it is. I am assuming it's like an EREV. It's got a EV plug in outlet that fills a 16KW battery that gave me 37 miles on pure EV when new. now down to 27 miles after only 50k miles. Then it's got a generator that kicks in once your range is done giving you hundreds of miles more of range on gas. There is no transmission, so again I believe this would be how an EREV would work but correct me if I'm wrong.

That's part of the problem, each hybrid is slightly different on how they do things so it becomes very specialized to repair. I went to a GM service centre and they said they have a certified technician. All they did was stick their computer on it and charge me $400CAN to tell me what I already know (because I have an OBD reader that told me). battery coolant low even though it isn't (which was preventing the battery to charge). I was assuming they would at least be smart enough to say it could be a faulty sensor. nope. He just reset the code and said if it happens again you probably need to change the battery. Won't be going there ever again.

Finally found an independent Tech and they were much better. They got that same code and changed the sensor, it worked for a couple of days but then got the same problem. Had to bring it in and he looked at it for a week. Had to drop the battery, check all harnesses and cables and couldn't find anything wrong. He said one of the harnesses had a bit of corrosion on it so he replaced it. Thousands of dollars later, it looks like he fixed it. Now days later a new error and the engine won't kick in. Very frustrating.

Again... biggest issue is there are very few that have the knowledge to work on these specialized systems so you are forced to be at their mercy and pay them the big bucks.

I haven't even discussed all the issues of normal operation. Like stale gas, oil changes even though you hardly run the engine, force running your engine so the seals don't get dry, and to top it off major degradation of the battery because its small so you run through cycles like there is no tomorrow.

I bought a hybrid over an EV at that time thinking the same way you are. Best of Both worlds and if I ever need to go long distances I can go without worry. I found out the hard way that I was wrong. You need to really analyze your use of that vehicle. Our car hardly ever goes long distances, so it's essentially an EV with a load of needless engine related things to worry about. It's way, way worth it to stop at a charging station a few times a year if you don't do a lot of long distances travel.

But what if you do a lot of long distance travelling. If you do, that means you will hardly gain any benefits from the battery. You will need to go to charging stations and gas stations. You will destroy your smaller battery in no time. At 50k miles, mine has degraded by 25%. You can't just say I will ignore the battery either, it is required regardless if your engine works great or not. So be prepared for a 50K charge after 100k miles (in other words be ready to replace the truck because it won't be worth it)... and on top of that, you've been still paying for gas that whole time. So again, what are you planning to gain from an EREV truck?

There may be a use case that works for some, but I am staying as far away from these things as possible. If I go back to doing a lot of long distance driving, I am getting an ICE truck.

Just saying, the Lightning battery is 131kwh and costs $43,000. There is no way a 16kwh battery is $50k.

 

[MotoGary]

For all of the negative comments about a certain CEO and how he runs his EV company it seems he had it right.

I don't think that's a the conclusion we can draw based on the article and even Farley's own admissions.

"If anything, Ford was way too aggressive in capacitizing for more expensive vehicles and late to recognize that it needed the Skunkworks," Sam Abuelsamid, vice president of Market Research at Telemetry Insights said.

Skunkworks is the team of engineers that Ford put together in California to develop a low-cost EV platform."


"Farley told Wall Street to expect more news this year around Ford's EV investment strategy and that one thing is certain: Exorbitantly priced EVs will not yield high sales volume or profits, so don't expect to see them come from Ford, he said."

Experts point out Ford's strategic errors in ramping up Lightning production capacity, and Farley himself basically admits that he got it wrong by rolling out a big expensive EV. But good for him in recognizing that fact and for resetting the strategy and expectations. The Lightning was a very expensive experiment for Ford. The lessons learned will be valuable for the future. So if you want to call that a Farley win....ok.

 

[Altivec]

Just saying, the Lightning battery is 131kwh and costs $43,000. There is no way a 16kwh battery is $50k.

I was quoted 43K to replace my 16kw battery in my ELR from a GM dealership. This is Canadian dollars, which suck... That's about 30k US dollars. I said 50K for an EREV truck because I am assuming they will have a bigger battery than 16kw. Maybe it will be 40k. I'm just guessing. The point is, a smaller battery will die a lot faster due to the constant cycling and it won't be a pretty cost when it happens. Because of this, you will run into it this situation well before a reasonable end of life. Just like my car is at 50k miles, the rest of it is in excellent condition, so it's a sin to junk it but yet there is no way I am going to sink 43KCAN into it.

 

[Firn]

I was quoted 43K to replace my 16kw battery in my ELR from a GM dealership. This is Canadian dollars, which suck... That's about 30k US dollars. I said 50K for an EREV truck because I am assuming they will have a bigger battery than 16kw. Maybe it will be 40k. I'm just guessing. The point is, a smaller battery will die a lot faster due to the constant cycling and it won't be a pretty cost when it happens. Because of this, you will run into it this situation well before a reasonable end of life. Just like my car is at 50k miles, the rest of it is in excellent condition, so it's a sin to junk it but yet there is no way I am going to sink 43KCAN into it.

I don't disagree that hybrid batteries take a big beating.

However those prices for replacement are insane. Batteries themselves are the most expensive component and generally can be tied to $ per Whr. The price you were quited for a very small battery is the same or higher than prices paid for batteries four to six times larger. There will be a cost, and it won't be small, but whatever is happening with your ELR is not representative.

 

[TMND]

All this generator nonsense and range extender talk…. Just need to put a thorium salt reactor in the back and you’ll be able to go forever. In all honesty, I expect to see this in my lifetime

 

[Altivec]

I don't disagree that hybrid batteries take a big beating.

However those prices for replacement are insane. Batteries themselves are the most expensive component and generally can be tied to $ per Whr. The price you were quited for a very small battery is the same or higher than prices paid for batteries four to six times larger. There will be a cost, and it won't be small, but whatever is happening with your ELR is not representative.

It could be that my GM dealer gave me a rip off quote. I didn't look into if further because although it has degraded quite a bit, I knew it wasn't the issue I was having, so I didn't check around for battery pricing. According to the awesome tech guy I found, he said all hybrid batteries take a beating and keeps him busy. He said, he's shocked that I made it so long without issue, so not sure in your confidence that this is not representative of hybrid systems.

I really hope you're right and that 30k US is not the going rate to replace my battery because I really want to keep this car and it's looking like that time is coming sooner than later. Since I am going to have to bring it back to him this week, I will ask this guy how much it would cost to change the battery just to see if the GM dealer was being honest,

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