GM To Adopt Tesla/NACS Charging Standard

[Zprime29]

I watched Out of Specs tour of Charge Point. I was really impressed by their modular design. It would be trivial for them to use the cabinets they already have and just swap out cables with the appropriate plug.

To be fully up front, I liked it enough that I've started buying their stock.

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[carys98]

I sincerely hope that Ford and GM have ironclad contracts with Tesla. The short term effect is likely to slow investment in the CCS networks and I’m worried that Musk could back out in a year and give Tesla an even bigger advantage.

 

[Amps]

Problem is NEVI calls out CCS explicitly as required. It would take a legislative amendment to retract that. (Not a law expert)

As I stated in the previous post, the way I read it, CCS1 was the only standard that met the requirements of the legislation when written almost six months before Tesla opened up and published NACS in November 2022. With NEVI, there is nothing to preclude offering an alternate connector along with CCS1 in NEVI incentive funded chargers. Tesla Magic Dock dispensers would meet the requirement, as would double cabled dispensers from other CPOs. In the current built-out Tesla SuC network, they can do nothing, take no NEVI funds for those locations, and still accept Ford and GM vehicles.

This final rule establishes a requirement that each DCFC port must have a Combined Charging System (CCS) Type 1 connectors. This final rule also allows DCFC charging ports to have other non-proprietary connectors so long as each DCFC charging port is capable of charging a CCS-compliant vehicle.

https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2023-03500/p-45

 

[Dharri21]

I'll bet there is a ton of inflation reduction act money heading in Tesla's direction to pay for opening that network up.

 

[F150ROD]

While I am generally happy about the announcement, I just hope there will be a way to upgrade the 2022 and 2023 trucks at some point. Why should I be happy about getting a truck in August with an outdated standard...

There will be a connector offered.

 

[Amps]

I'll bet there is a ton of inflation reduction act money heading in Tesla's direction to pay for opening that network up.

Just because Ford and GM can pull up to v3 Superchargers in the near future doesn't get Tesla NEVI money. The current network does not meet NEVI requirements. They'll be on an equal footing for funding with other charge point operators if their new locations meet NEVI requirements.

 

[Texas Dan]

Problem is NEVI calls out CCS explicitly as required. It would take a legislative amendment to retract that. (Not a law expert)

@Texas Dan what are your thoughts on this? Think it possible NEVI gets altered of more auto makers abandon ship?

Ford and GM were heavily involved in the development of the NEVI requirements. NEVI can be amended but any major change would require a consensus from auto manufacturers. Remember that when NEVI was developed NACS was closed to other manufacturers.

NEVI is already through the first half of its’ first year. Buy the time GM and Ford start put NACS ports on their EVs, NEVI will be in its’ third year. There may already be too much momentum for NEVI to change course.

For NACS to be a national standard supported by NEVI not only do a majority of auto manufacturers have to adopt the standard, the charging service providers also have to adopt the standard. I haven’t heard anything about any charging service providers jumping on the NACS bandwagon other than a few EVgo stations. If Tesla tries to monopolize NACS in any way NEVI won’t support it.

NEVI does have some very stringent availability requirements that even Tesla Superchargers will have a hard time complying with. It’s mandatory that all charging service providers will have to really step up their game to qualify for NEVI funding. So to say that we have to go to NACS because of availability doesn’t really make sense because all the charging service providers are going to have to improve availability, including Tesla.

I might also point out that one of the reasons Superchargers have a higher satisfaction rating is because maintenance and operation is controlled by Tesla. There is no way that the federal government is going to give all the NEVI money to Tesla. So even if the country adopts NACS as a standard you are going to have the same types of problems that we have with CCS with many different charging service providers providing various levels of support to their NACS chargers.

 

[Zprime29]

I haven’t heard anything about any charging service providers jumping on the NACS bandwagon other than a few EVgo stations.

https://electrek.co/2023/05/30/freewire-ford-and-tesla-vows-to-add-nacs-connectors-chargers-ev/

 

[vandy1981]

Ford and GM were heavily involved in the development of the NEVI requirements. NEVI can be amended but any major change would require a consensus from auto manufacturers.

The FHWA could change the rule if they wanted to but it would have to follow the federal rulemaking process which is slow and would probably take another year. They wouldn't need a consensus from all automakers but they would need a lobbying plurality to push the Tesla connector. I would think that Ford and GM would encompass a big enough lobby to make it happen. Add Stellantis to that because they're inevitably going to follow suit, especially since they currently have no investment in CCS1 in their fleet. Either way, the first round of RFA's has wrapped up for most states, so the first round of chargers will all have CCS1 or integrated CCS1 adapters.

There is no way that the federal government is going to give all the NEVI money to Tesla. So even if the country adopts NACS as a standard you are going to have the same types of problems that we have with CCS with many different charging service providers providing various levels of support to their NACS chargers.

This is absolutely right. The Tesla connector *may* end up being more reliable than the CCS1 connector because it's less complex and sturdier, but you're still going to have the same reliability issues with the rest of the hardware and software stack.

 

[On the Road with Ralph]

The Tesla connector *may* end up being more reliable than the CCS1 connector because it's less complex and sturdier, but you're still going to have the same reliability issues with the rest of the hardware and software stack.

I recently had an experience that influenced my view on DCFC reliability. I was at an ElectrifyAmerica station that was partially shut down because it was being serviced (side note - I got a free charge out of it). I asked the tech doing the work what he thought was the primary cause of EA's lack of reliability. His response: EA service folks who are poorly trained and don't know what they are doing. He noted that his presence at the chargers where I was stopped was a direct result of a previous service call by an EA employee that went bad.

I suspect that this is one of several factors. Very few of the charging dispensers (unlike gas pumps) or the massive electrical gear needed to feed them are protected from the elements by a canopy or roof structure. In many locations, that likely leads to them cooking in the sun. There is frequent vandalism and accidental damage. CCS chargers also need to be constantly updated to deal with the myriad of unique elements in different EV charging systems (J-1772/CCS is FAR LESS standardized than most people think). In some ways, it is a miracle that when we plug in our Lightnings, anything happens at all.

The adoption of NACS may force the manufacturers to adopt not only Tesla's hardware, but its protocols and software. That standardization would be a step forward.

 

[greenne]

I honestly don't think this will dent CCS development one bit in the short term.

If the market takes off like everyone seems to predict, there will be more than enough demand for both CCS and Tesla. We're gonna need everyone on board to satisfy demand. For example, take a look at what is happening in California with high demand. I can easily see EA and/or EvGO adding tesla connectors. I mean, the tower already has two connectors(but you can only use one at a time)..how hard would it be to swap one out with a Tesla(NACS) connection?

On a personal note, I still plan to use CCS as much as possible but it will be extremely nice to have Tesla as a dependable backup. I do think Tesla supercharger will really help in areas of high demand and areas "off the beaten path", but there will still be a place for CCS. This just gives Ford and Chevy a heck of a lot more options. I don't use DCFC that much, but when I have EvGO has worked great and I have charge+ enabled for easy payment. No problems thus far and it's been MUCH cheaper than comparable Tesla Supercharger or EA would be.

 

[greenne]

I recently had an experience that influenced my view on DCFC reliability. I was at an ElectrifyAmerica station that was partially shut down because it was being serviced (side note - I got a free charge out of it). I asked the tech doing the work what he thought was the primary cause of EA's lack of reliability. His response: EA service folks who are poorly trained and don't know what they are doing. He noted that his presence at the chargers where I was stopped was a direct result of a previous service call by an EA employee that went bad.

I suspect that this is one of several factors. Very few of the charging dispensers (unlike gas pumps) or the massive electrical gear needed to feed them are protected from the elements by a canopy or roof structure. In many locations, that likely leads to them cooking in the sun. There is frequent vandalism and accidental damage. CCS chargers also need to be constantly updated to deal with the myriad of unique elements in different EV charging systems (J-1772/CCS is FAR LESS standardized than most people think). In some ways, it is a miracle that when we plug in our Lightnings, anything happens at all.

The adoption of NACS may force the manufacturers to adopt not only Tesla's hardware, but its protocols and software. That standardization would be a step forward.

I think a lot of EA problems get pushed off as being a CCS problem when really its a company/business problem. When problems occur at an EA station, most of the time its because of EA incompetence-- not a CCS specific problem. I honestly don't know why they haven't figured it out yet..maybe its lack of operational management, maybe its a funding thing, maybe a combination. But it seems like they are totally inept at running the network, totally tone deaf with customer service.

I've had far less problems with EvGO and chargepoint. Not flawless, but the problems are minor and when I have called customer service-- they were friendly and seemed to know what they were doing and resolved my problems quickly. EA fails as a company and because they have the most CCS coverage that gets carried over as a CCS problem when most of the time its an EA problem.

 

[RickLightning]

I recently had an experience that influenced my view on DCFC reliability. I was at an ElectrifyAmerica station that was partially shut down because it was being serviced (side note - I got a free charge out of it). I asked the tech doing the work what he thought was the primary cause of EA's lack of reliability. His response: EA service folks who are poorly trained and don't know what they are doing. He noted that his presence at the chargers where I was stopped was a direct result of a previous service call by an EA employee that went bad.

I suspect that this is one of several factors. Very few of the charging dispensers (unlike gas pumps) or the massive electrical gear needed to feed them are protected from the elements by a canopy or roof structure. In many locations, that likely leads to them cooking in the sun. There is frequent vandalism and accidental damage. CCS chargers also need to be constantly updated to deal with the myriad of unique elements in different EV charging systems (J-1772/CCS is FAR LESS standardized than most people think). In some ways, it is a miracle that when we plug in our Lightnings, anything happens at all.

The adoption of NACS may force the manufacturers to adopt not only Tesla's hardware, but its protocols and software. That standardization would be a step forward.

I am of the understanding that EA hires 3rd parties for service. I have seen 3 or 4 service techs over the years, and not one worked for EA. Spoken to several of them, and most seemed pretty clueless about vehicle charging speeds.

I honestly don't think this will dent CCS development one bit in the short term.

If the market takes off like everyone seems to predict, there will be more than enough demand for both CCS and Tesla. We're gonna need everyone on board to satisfy demand. For example, take a look at what is happening in California with high demand. I can easily see EA and/or EvGO adding tesla connectors. I mean, the tower already has two connectors(but you can only use one at a time)..how hard would it be to swap one out with a Tesla(NACS) connection?

On a personal note, I still plan to use CCS as much as possible but it will be extremely nice to have Tesla as a dependable backup. I do think Tesla supercharger will really help in areas of high demand and areas "off the beaten path", but there will still be a place for CCS. This just gives Ford and Chevy a heck of a lot more options. I don't use DCFC that much, but when I have EvGO has worked great and I have charge+ enabled for easy payment. No problems thus far and it's been MUCH cheaper than comparable Tesla Supercharger or EA would be.

The new EA design is one hose per pump.

 

[02Reaper]

I look at it like is less of an adapter issue than it is a charging issue. Auto makers want to sell cars. Currently the CCS network is hit and miss on reliability. Tesla is known for its charging reliability and station rollout. Ford and GM are just doing what they have to do to be able to sell electric vehicles. If you can't beat the competition join them (tesla charging infrastructure). I think its a big punch in the gut to electrify America and other charging companies now to say get it together with your problems or get out.

 

[davehu]

Sounds like Wired is making a big deal of a ~four-year-old design. .....

....and an old internal report from January ....2022

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