Tow to charge?

[invertedspear]

I am trying to look at this logically. :
What is the difference between pulling the F-150 and having the F-150 (or any electric car) on a downhill grade with a greater grade than rolling friction?
Forgetting the inherent inefficiency, the question here is if it would work. Will it?

Probably none, probably yes.

I think one major thing that people run into is charging from 0%. When plugged in several people have reported that it takes a lot longer to get that first 1% back into the battery than other levels of charge. Worse was someone recently reporting that it went from 5% SOC to 0 almost instantly. Considering this is the "OMG EMERGENCY!" situation you would consider flat-tow charging, you may have a situation where things are too dead to get the regen going, so you may not really be getting much, if anything, out of the flat-tow. So maybe the best time to do this would be at 10% realizing you only have 20 miles of charge left, immediately stop, flat tow back up to 50 miles of range, and hopefully that gets you to a charger.

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[BBB]

The problem is the amount of time needed to charge. Even if you had a 20kW generator putting out 80A, it would take 6 hours to fill from empty. It’s a good alternative if you were planning to stop anyway but not a great one for a constant fuel source.

Exactly. But the places i go tend to be very remote and stays of a week or more are not uncommon. As for hyway use I seldom go on trips less than 350 one way so EV's today just don't have the range i need making stops necessary. I get behind the wheel and don't stop untill i get close to my destination. I set the CC and go. The gen is intended for remote area use in areas without chargers.

 

[BBB]

that sounds like a real easy, dreamy idea, but it doesn't hold merit:

A) any 'portable' generator, if there even is such a thing, with 240v output, CONTINUOUSLY, for HOURS on END, at any amount of output, such as 30amps, would not only take a HUGE amount of fuel, but would not be 'portable' for any such a reasonable situation... it's just not reality. The weight of the generator, and the additional 'fuel' you now would need to CARRY in the truck, negates all the 'power' you might be able to generate. You've now wasted MILES to get where you are going, so you actually come up SHORTER than if you had NOT carried it to begin with.

There are many generators on the market that can do the job, do a search and you will see. The concept is very practical for a pickup not a cheese box suv. Even a Rivian R1T which has a very small bed will work. i was driving one last week to ascertain its suitability for my use will work.
chuckle....you guys are reminding me of the discussions back in the early days when lead acid and home built were the only games in town. Lots of negative comments on range and a few like me that insisted they did not hold water. Well to make a long story short a guy in LA area said he would prove an electric vehicle can go coast to coast and he successfully did so on his own dime. I think he used a Ford Courier possible ranger but i don't think the ranger was born yet and towed a propane generator. Simple enough, he basically turned his home built EV into a hybrid with a detachable genset. Oh, and today we have longer range EV's and some are capable of towing 10,000 pounds so are not limited. Back then it was low voltage DC but any person with an electronics background could wire an auto start for the genset is towed making frequent stops unnecessarily. This was 70's technology and the first hybrid was born

 

[jjerabek]

I am trying to look at this logically. :
What is the difference between pulling the F-150 and having the F-150 (or any electric car) on a downhill grade with a greater grade than rolling friction?
Forgetting the inherent inefficiency, the question here is if it would work. Will it?
Yes, someone would have to be in the F-150 as well as having someone in the tow vehicle. But, if you have two trucks along in the first place, that should not be a logistical problem. (Legal, maybe, but not logistical.)
I do not know about Canada, but in California, having a person in a "normally towed vehicle" is illegal. However, if you are towing one vehicle with a tow rope vice a tow bar, the towed vehicle has to have a driver capable of controlling the vehicle. (The law hat o allow for certain emergencies.)
Next, one pedal or two pedal, if there is capacity to slow the vehicle via electrical braking, the friction brakes should never go on. As such, the driver of the Lightning would have the responsibility of maintaining a "power setting" (accelerator pedal position) consistent with some maximum charging rate. (I think if I were testing this on a Lightning, I would hold at 50KW or less. At least initially.)

On another post, I am not convinced that the electro-mechanical losses would be that much different with this method than a generator. I suspect it would be less efficient overall, but both faster and easier than toting a 10KW generator.
Personally, I think this would work. Would it be worth it? I do not know. Legally it would be questionable, but so are many worthwhile ventures. It might mess with your warranty - if Ford could prove it.
I would love to see a test as I have had the same question, although without the same resources.

All of this is exactly my reasoning. Very well put, thanks for confirming, at least to me, that this may not be crazy after all haha.

 

[chl]

probably all of us, at one time or another, have had those 'people'(you know, the ones that DON'T own an EV, and sometimes don't even 'believe' in EVs) claim that 'all we have to do' is add an Alternator to our spinning wheels, and 'voila!', we'd have it licked! Yes, well, a novel idea, for sure, and that works to keep a tiny 12v battery supply with most of it's trickle charge while the engine is running in most 'other' vehicles, but we are talking about a HUGE very powerful Battery Pack, at 400+/- volts, with inverters, converters, and electric MOTORS that require a HUGE amount of power. This is not where an 'alternator' makes any sense.

The second reaction is typically: "why don't you just throw a generator in the back of your truck, 'just in case'?"... sure, that, again, is a novel thought, but is not realistic to any 'answer' to range. The shear WEIGHT of any additional 'generator', AND all the additional FUEL you'd need to carry, NEGATES the whole REASON for having it: it would simply create a LOWER range or miles, to begin with.

It's easy to just assume that no one has ever thought of these 'answers' before, but engineers are not dumb. They are trained to ask themselves these very same questions, and to look for LOGICAL and REASONABLE answers.
What happens, though, is that Real Life gets in the way of 'simple answers', as we don't live our lives, or drive, in a bubble, or in a Perfect World.
If an Alternator was the 'simple' answer, sure, we'd all already have one.
If a Generator was the 'simple' answer, sure, we'd all be offered one as an 'optional' add-on to our trucks.
If a Larger BATTERY was the 'simple' answer, we'd all BALK at the huge additional cost.

No, there are little 'simple' answers to anything Battery Powered, or Engine Powered, or Coal Powered. It's all about physics, the laws of gravity, science, and logic.

REASONABLE answers are similar to what we already have:
A) a fine vehicle that has 'reasonable' range
B) a fine vehicle that has 'reasonable' cost
C) a fine vehicle that works just as it should

There will always be those who propose additional 'needs', but generally speaking, you own a machine that does exactly what it should, and does it VERY WELL. We are all blessed.

Ha, yes.
Did you know a diesel train engine is a big generator powering an electric motor?
And the Chevy Volt was an electric car with a gasoline generator (requiring high test gas) that kicked in when the EV battery was got low.
Also, there were some Leaf owners who ran out of juice and had someone tow them using the regenerative braking to put enough juice back in the battery to get home - strange but true.

To me, an electrical engineer, the simple answer to EV's range and price issues would be to be a lease system where you are able to swap out the battery with a charged one when needed at conveniently located facilities as ubiquitous as gas stations are now - yes there are companies implementing this idea, quite a few startups now besides Nio and Ample: https://www.f6s.com/companies/battery-swapping/mo
In that scenario, the cost of the battery, which makes EVs so expensive, would be borne by the battery lease/swapping company, also the battery degradation risks would be borne by them.

So the vehicle manufacturer simply makes the EV w/out battery, providing a modular-battery compatible vehicle (assume someday standardization of battery sizes), then the buyer leases the battery - the dealership can act as the agent for the battery company an offer options at vehicle purchase like they do with other after-market stuff.

Ample and Nio both have robotic battery swapping that, according to Ample, can change an EV battery is under 5 minutes.

It just seems like a no-brainer to me.

Ford, for example, is not a battery maker anyway.
Modular standardization is more efficient than what we have now.

And new battery tech can be implemented as it comes along and put into the modular package that will fit the vehicles.

Battery size could be selected at lease time, so there is more than just SR and ER sizes, depending on driving requirements, and if they requirement change, so could the battery without having to buy a brand new vehicle.

I'm sure there are a lot more advantages than just the above.

 

[VTbuckeye]

Ha, yes.
Did you know a diesel train engine is a big generator powering an electric motor?
And the Chevy Volt was an electric car with a gasoline generator (requiring high test gas) that kicked in when the EV battery was got low.
Also, there were some Leaf owners who ran out of juice and had someone tow them using the regenerative braking to put enough juice back in the battery to get home - strange but true.

To me, an electrical engineer, the simple answer to EV's range and price issues would be to be a lease system where you are able to swap out the battery with a charged one when needed at conveniently located facilities as ubiquitous as gas stations are now - yes there are companies implementing this idea, quite a few startups now besides Nio and Ample: https://www.f6s.com/companies/battery-swapping/mo
In that scenario, the cost of the battery, which makes EVs so expensive, would be borne by the battery lease/swapping company, also the battery degradation risks would be borne by them.

So the vehicle manufacturer simply makes the EV w/out battery, providing a modular-battery compatible vehicle (assume someday standardization of battery sizes), then the buyer leases the battery - the dealership can act as the agent for the battery company an offer options at vehicle purchase like they do with other after-market stuff.

Ample and Nio both have robotic battery swapping that, according to Ample, can change an EV battery is under 5 minutes.

It just seems like a no-brainer to me.

Ford, for example, is not a battery maker anyway.
Modular standardization is more efficient than what we have now.

And new battery tech can be implemented as it comes along and put into the modular package that will fit the vehicles.

Battery size could be selected at lease time, so there is more than just SR and ER sizes, depending on driving requirements, and if they requirement change, so could the battery without having to buy a brand new vehicle.

I'm sure there are a lot more advantages than just the above.

So how many more batteries are needed than EVs? You would need a battery in every EV and then a ton of extras located at inconvenient locations. If there are battery charging locations as ubiquitous as has stations (to make it highly convenient) then there will be so many more batteries than cars. Each of these battery swap locations needs to be able to recharge the battery once swapped. Will this be a slow charge or fast charge? If slow what happens when lots of cars arrive at the same time? If it is recharged quickly, why not just have dcfc at the location?
Will there also be home charging? I've driven almost 60k EV miles over the past 5 years. Only dcfc one time. Home charging has been great and I wouldn't drive an EV without it.
Battery swapping could be part of the solution, but I don't think it is the only answer. For the OP contemplating driving into the middle of nowhere it is easier to have electric charging infrastructure in an area than electric infrastructure plus battery swapping infrastructure.

 

[chl]

So how many more batteries are needed than EVs? You would need a battery in every EV and then a ton of extras located at inconvenient locations. If there are battery charging locations as ubiquitous as has stations (to make it highly convenient) then there will be so many more batteries than cars. Each of these battery swap locations needs to be able to recharge the battery once swapped. Will this be a slow charge or fast charge? If slow what happens when lots of cars arrive at the same time? If it is recharged quickly, why not just have dcfc at the location?
Will there also be home charging? I've driven almost 60k EV miles over the past 5 years. Only dcfc one time. Home charging has been great and I wouldn't drive an EV without it.
Battery swapping could be part of the solution, but I don't think it is the only answer. For the OP contemplating driving into the middle of nowhere it is easier to have electric charging infrastructure in an area than electric infrastructure plus battery swapping infrastructure.

1) not sure on the number of batteries, but Nio is doing it in China and Ample in Ca. and since you could still home charge L2 not as many are needed as you might think, so yes, you will still be able to charge at home L2. Which in the case of the middle of nowhere is the only answer...and maybe you need solar as well (or an Aptera whenever they finally build and mass produce them: https://aptera.us/)

2) a lot cheaper to install a robotic battery changer and storage than a fast charging station, so they say, no need to run the HV utility lines for multiple DC chargers which themselves cost an arm and a leg, etc.

3) replace gas stations with the change stations, they are about the size of a small car wash:

4) the swap batteries can be charged slowly at a main warehouse of the lease company and at L2, not DC, so they last longer.

5) Yes I agree, part of the solution for long distance driving situations, which is why Ample is first going with fleet vehicles that travel more than your average consumer, taxi cabs, delivery vehicles, etc.

6) think about this: when you reach the point that your battery is no longer useful, that is, when the capacity drops to a level inadequate for your needs, what will you have to do? With a battery swapping system, you never have that worry.

You have 5 years and almost 60k miles, so in 3 years or 20k more miles, the warranty is up.
Replacing an EV battery is pricey, unless it is a modular type, even just replacing the individual cells inside it (which BTW ARE modular so they can be changed more easily), can get expensive depending on the type of vehicle, etc.

Maybe you like the vehicle and don't want to get a whole new vehicle.

So at the point your warranty expires, if modular battery swapper Ample has gotten to your area, or another company, you convert your vehicle to be modular compatible with their robotic system.

Right now they can convert many EV brands, including Nissan and Tesla, and the MAch-e last time I checked - OK, now their web site says "any EV any size and any automaker."

https://ample.com/

Although we are in a trade war with China right now, and Nio is a Chinese company, they are building battery swapping all over China and so eventually, when things cool might come to the US.

PS: they are in Europe and India and Africa too. The US is missing the boat!

7) L2 home charging is great if you live in a place where you can put it. So what about apt dwellers, city dwellers, etc. though? I have several friends who live in apartments/condos/townhouse developments with HOA's, etc. and that is the only reason they aren't driving an EV. Commercial charging can't handle EVERYONE charging at all the suburban apartment buildings all at once either, and like battery swapping, probably can't be the only solution.

Which is easier to scale up though? Providing enough DC fast chargers for everyone to be able to use is impractical - the utilities don't have the capacity, the towns and highways don't have the space, even DC charging takes longer than battery swapping, or gas tank filling.

Sure it's fine now when EVs area small portion of the vehicles on the road, but DC fast chargers are not a long term solution.

Here's another thought: how often do people fill there tanks? Once a week or two for our Prius. Miles per week? 100 seems to be the US average?
So do we need all EVs to have 250-320 mile range batteries? Not really. Except for "range anxiety."
But if you could drive to a local battery swapper any time you need to, would range anxiety be a thing?
Would the long time it takes to charge your own battery at home be a concern?
Would the degradation due to DC charging be a thing?
No.

Also, if modular batteries can come in different sizes, they could be swapped very easily for small ones when range demand is low and larger ones for more range., like if you are driving to the beach or grandma's house, over the river and through the woods.

So while the number of batteries may be large, perhaps the size of each could be much smaller than the 250-320 mile range batteries, so the materials needed to make them and space need to store them for swapping would be less, AND THE COST OF EVs would be less, than if everyone has a large battery with more range then they need.

Anyway, as an engineer, I say give me a problem and I will design a solution, or two.

 

[VTbuckeye]

1) not sure on the number of batteries, but Nio is doing it in China and Ample in Ca. and since you could still home charge L2 not as many are needed as you might think, so yes, you will still be able to charge at home L2. Which in the case of the middle of nowhere is the only answer...and maybe you need solar as well (or an Aptera whenever they finally build and mass produce them: https://aptera.us/)

2) a lot cheaper to install a robotic battery changer and storage than a fast charging station, so they say, no need to run the HV utility lines for multiple DC chargers which themselves cost an arm and a leg, etc.

3) replace gas stations with the change stations, they are about the size of a small car wash:

4) the swap batteries can be charged slowly at a main warehouse of the lease company and at L2, not DC, so they last longer.

5) Yes I agree, part of the solution for long distance driving situations, which is why Ample is first going with fleet vehicles that travel more than your average consumer, taxi cabs, delivery vehicles, etc.

6) think about this: when you reach the point that your battery is no longer useful, that is, when the capacity drops to a level inadequate for your needs, what will you have to do? With a battery swapping system, you never have that worry.

You have 5 years and almost 60k miles, so in 3 years or 20k more miles, the warranty is up.
Replacing an EV battery is pricey, unless it is a modular type, even just replacing the individual cells inside it (which BTW ARE modular so they can be changed more easily), can get expensive depending on the type of vehicle, etc.

Maybe you like the vehicle and don't want to get a whole new vehicle.

So at the point your warranty expires, if modular battery swapper Ample has gotten to your area, or another company, you convert your vehicle to be modular compatible with their robotic system.

Right now they can convert many EV brands, including Nissan and Tesla, and the MAch-e last time I checked - OK, now their web site says "any EV any size and any automaker."

https://ample.com/

Although we are in a trade war with China right now, and Nio is a Chinese company, they are building battery swapping all over China and so eventually, when things cool might come to the US.

PS: they are in Europe and India and Africa too. The US is missing the boat!

7) L2 home charging is great if you live in a place where you can put it. So what about apt dwellers, city dwellers, etc. though? I have several friends who live in apartments/condos/townhouse developments with HOA's, etc. and that is the only reason they aren't driving an EV. Commercial charging can't handle EVERYONE charging at all the suburban apartment buildings all at once either, and like battery swapping, probably can't be the only solution.

Which is easier to scale up though? Providing enough DC fast chargers for everyone to be able to use is impractical - the utilities don't have the capacity, the towns and highways don't have the space, even DC charging takes longer than battery swapping, or gas tank filling.

Sure it's fine now when EVs area small portion of the vehicles on the road, but DC fast chargers are not a long term solution.

Here's another thought: how often do people fill there tanks? Once a week or two for our Prius. Miles per week? 100 seems to be the US average?
So do we need all EVs to have 250-320 mile range batteries? Not really. Except for "range anxiety."
But if you could drive to a local battery swapper any time you need to, would range anxiety be a thing?
Would the long time it takes to charge your own battery at home be a concern?
Would the degradation due to DC charging be a thing?
No.

Also, if modular batteries can come in different sizes, they could be swapped very easily for small ones when range demand is low and larger ones for more range., like if you are driving to the beach or grandma's house, over the river and through the woods.

So while the number of batteries may be large, perhaps the size of each could be much smaller than the 250-320 mile range batteries, so the materials needed to make them and space need to store them for swapping would be less, AND THE COST OF EVs would be less, than if everyone has a large battery with more range then they need.

Anyway, as an engineer, I say give me a problem and I will design a solution, or two.

Good discussion. I am in the northeast. I expect that my battery will outlast the body/frame of my vehicle. Cars here rust away to nothing.

Being able to change pack size on the fly is one of the best aspects of battery swapping. It could allow the increased number of packs of battery swapping to require less additional resources. I have an ER lightning, but rarely charge above 80 percent or drop below 40 percent. But to have the full power available when towing my boat (short distance) and faster charging, to allow fewer charge cycles, and because of winter/cold I went with the bigger battery. To have a long range sometimes and a short range otherwise is certainly intriguing.

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