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EV Charging Network Will Target Interstates Before Expanding Into Remote Rural and Crowded Urban Areas

sotek2345

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Biden Pitches $5.8 Trillion Plan With Record Tax Hike


There’s $1.4 billion for electric-vehicle charging stations, supporting Biden’s ambition for half of all vehicles sold in the U.S. to be capable of emissions-free driving by the end of the decade.
Good - the charging network is one area holding EV adoption back and Build Back Better only had half of what was asked for. Climate change is going to cost hundreds of $Billions per year, so this is just a drop in the bucket to try to control those costs.
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FordLightningMan

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Existing Wawa, QuikTrip, Sheetz, Royal Farms, and the other regional pumper/convenience mega-marts are the locations that I think are most important to enlist for DCFC locations.
The only problem is these places make more money from gas pumpers than people charging an EV. Even if the percentage of people pumping gas that go in for a snack is less than EV, you can have 10x as many people use the pump than a charger in the same time span.

Assuming the average EV stop is 20 minutes, you maybe have 50 people stop a day per charger, due to off peak hours. If those people all grab a bottle of water and a bag of chips, you'll need many years to repay your investment. Tesla's super chargers are subsidized by cars with the highest margins in the business. You don't get the same margin on a bag of chips.

Faster charging is the key to moving more charging stations to former gas station locations. Then you can have the volume business needed to pay back the investment.
 

sotek2345

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The only problem is these places make more money from gas pumpers than people charging an EV. Even if the percentage of people pumping gas that go in for a snack is less than EV, you can have 10x as many people use the pump than a charger in the same time span.

Assuming the average EV stop is 20 minutes, you maybe have 50 people stop a day per charger, due to off peak hours. If those people all grab a bottle of water and a bag of chips, you'll need many years to repay your investment. Tesla's super chargers are subsidized by cars with the highest margins in the business. You don't get the same margin on a bag of chips.

Faster charging is the key to moving more charging stations to former gas station locations. Then you can have the volume business needed to pay back the investment.
This is why the government incentives are needed until the technology is fully mature. If uncle Sam pays 90% of the install cost, the pay back period looks much nicer.

We need those incentives to build out the infrastructure fast - which will prompt more EV sales, which will drive demand for more chargers. Need to prime the pump to get the process rolling ASAP. Normal economic growth isn't going to be fast enough here.
 

TaxmanHog

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Tony Burgh

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The only problem is these places make more money from gas pumpers than people charging an EV. Even if the percentage of people pumping gas that go in for a snack is less than EV, you can have 10x as many people use the pump than a charger in the same time span.

Assuming the average EV stop is 20 minutes, you maybe have 50 people stop a day per charger, due to off peak hours. If those people all grab a bottle of water and a bag of chips, you'll need many years to repay your investment. Tesla's super chargers are subsidized by cars with the highest margins in the business. You don't get the same margin on a bag of chips.

Faster charging is the key to moving more charging stations to former gas station locations. Then you can have the volume business needed to pay back the investment.
Not correct. Profit margins are astronomically higher inside the convenience store than at the gas pumps. Cash flow is nice but profit margin drives the business. How many gas stations do you see without convenience stores compared to convenience stores without gas stations?
 

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Not correct. Profit margins are astronomically higher inside the convenience store than at the gas pumps. Cash flow is nice but profit margin drives the business. How many gas stations do you see without convenience stores compared to convenience stores without gas stations?
I understand this completely. I know someone who works for a gas distribution company and the business' net profit margin hovers around 1%, it is a volume business. The point being that far fewer people show up for an EV charger per day, versus a gas pump per day, based on length of charge time. sotek2345 hit the nail on the head with his response, there needs to be significant government incentives to install a charger for it to make financial sense. You just won't sell enough Gatorade and candy bars with 1/10 of the vehicle traffic to make the transition sensible. Or charge times need to be reduced considerably to make the volume of people showing up for EVs comparable to people using the pump.

Let's say you install a level 3 charger at a gas station, cost is $50,000. Average person is there for 20 minutes. You realistically have 50-60 people charging per day at each charger at a busy location. Half of them spend $5 on snacks, even at a significant 20% margin that's a $1 profit. That means you won't make back your investment for 4-5 years.

I guess the other thing to consider is maybe the margin on electricity will be much more than gas. If these chargers are set at astronomical prices and are in an area without competition, that would be another way to quickly recoup money. Though this is entirely based on a no competition scenario, which theoretically should go away in a few years.
 
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hturnerfamily

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the reality is the 'gas station' will NOT be the one footing the investment for this electrical infrastucture, but a third party company, like ChargePoint, where the gas station owner provides the 'footprint' place for the charging, and collects a small fee on each charge. The gas station owner gets the real revenues from the in-store purchases.
I assure you, also, that the long-term cost for this technology is also MUCH cheaper than the 'in-ground' gas equipment, tanks, waiting for 'refills', constantly changing fuel pricing, upkeep, and dealing with the EPA.
 

greenne

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I understand this completely. I know someone who works for a gas distribution company and the business' net profit margin hovers around 1%, it is a volume business. The point being that far fewer people show up for an EV charger per day, versus a gas pump per day, based on length of charge time. sotek2345 hit the nail on the head with his response, there needs to be significant government incentives to install a charger for it to make financial sense. You just won't sell enough Gatorade and candy bars with 1/10 of the vehicle traffic to make the transition sensible. Or charge times need to be reduced considerably to make the volume of people showing up for EVs comparable to people using the pump.

Let's say you install a level 3 charger at a gas station, cost is $50,000. Average person is there for 20 minutes. You realistically have 50-60 people charging per day at each charger at a busy location. Half of them spend $5 on snacks, even at a significant 20% margin that's a $1 profit. That means you won't make back your investment for 4-5 years.

I guess the other thing to consider is maybe the margin on electricity will be much more than gas. If these chargers are set at astronomical prices and are in an area without competition, that would be another way to quickly recoup money. Though this is entirely based on a no competition scenario, which theoretically should go away in a few years.
When EA opens a charger..what is the relationship between the EA and the location owner? I was under the impression that EA owned the charger(and took the profit) with only a small cut going to the property owner. In such an arrangement there really is no risk to the property owner, provided he or she has space for the chargers and it doesn't take away too many spaces for the non-EV crowd. As an added bonus, the property owner gets the store sales from people as they are charging? Is that not the case?

For the issues listed in the thread, I don't see many convenience store owners installing chargers on their own. What I do see is the potential of an agreement where EA (or another charger operator) comes in and effectively rents space. That seems like a win-win to me.
 

VTbuckeye

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the reality is the 'gas station' will NOT be the one footing the investment for this electrical infrastucture, but a third party company, like ChargePoint, where the gas station owner provides the 'footprint' place for the charging, and collects a small fee on each charge. The gas station owner gets the real revenues from the in-store purchases.
I assure you, also, that the long-term cost for this technology is also MUCH cheaper than the 'in-ground' gas equipment, tanks, waiting for 'refills', constantly changing fuel pricing, upkeep, and dealing with the EPA.
And there is never an electricity leak that requires digging up of tanks.... Every gas station is a mini-superfund site waiting to happen. If local electricity costs 20c per kWh and it is being sold at 35c per kWh then there is certainly profit available.
 

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You just won't sell enough Gatorade and candy bars with 1/10 of the vehicle traffic to make the transition sensible.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that they rip out all of their fossil pumps on Day 1 to install DCFC. As you said, it's a transition. Fossil fuels will be around for many years. My thought is that public seed money would be well-spent to align and combine new charging locations with existing energy delivery infrastructure. The Wawa, Sheetz, etc. of the world could provide convenience features and security to charging without hurting their ongoing business.
 

TheVirtualTim

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I understand this completely. I know someone who works for a gas distribution company and the business' net profit margin hovers around 1%, it is a volume business. The point being that far fewer people show up for an EV charger per day, versus a gas pump per day, based on length of charge time. sotek2345 hit the nail on the head with his response, there needs to be significant government incentives to install a charger for it to make financial sense. You just won't sell enough Gatorade and candy bars with 1/10 of the vehicle traffic to make the transition sensible. Or charge times need to be reduced considerably to make the volume of people showing up for EVs comparable to people using the pump.
There's a completely different dynamic between buying gas and charging an EV on the road.

With my ICE car ... I have to buy gas periodically. The only place to get that gas is to visit a gas station. That gas station might be a block from my home ... so I nearly always pay at the pump and don't even go inside. No need to go inside to get something to eat/drink or use a bathroom because I'm not far from home.

With my EV ... I charge at home. I NEVER charge at a station around town unless it's a "convenience" charge (my local grocery store has complementary EV charging as do a couple of the downtown parking decks.) So basically I'd never stop at a DC Fast Charger in or around my home town. When I do stop, I've already been driving for several hours so I want a break ... a restroom, something to drink, etc. ... it's a near 100% probability that I'll buy extra stuff while I'm there.

But also consider that it's no longer a question of "if" everyone converts to EV's ... but "when". Norway has a deadline of 2025. I think England is 2030 (that might be wrong). California is 2035. The manufacturers are switching everything over.

As this happens ... gas stations wont have nearly as much opportunity to sell gas ... regardless of how likely it is that a person at the pump will come into the convenience store to buy additional goods.
 

vandy1981

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When EA opens a charger..what is the relationship between the EA and the location owner?
Networks like EA and Tesla SC lease space from the property owner and collect fees from the chargers. Other networks like Chargepoint and Greenlots generally sell equipment and service plans to property owners who set rates and collect fees from the chargers.

Let's say you install a level 3 charger at a gas station, cost is $50,000. Average person is there for 20 minutes. You realistically have 50-60 people charging per day at each charger at a busy location. Half of them spend $5 on snacks, even at a significant 20% margin that's a $1 profit. That means you won't make back your investment for 4-5 years.
I can see truck stops and larger gas stations making the investment on charger installation because they have more real estate to spare and because they have multiple ways to collect revenue from people waiting to charge. It's easy to spend money and time at a place like Buc-ee's or Love's on things like brisket, video poker and those weird glass figurines that they all seem to have.
 

VTbuckeye

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As EV adoption increases there will be increasing needs for public charging. Not only because more EVs mean more people charging, but more importantly the early adopters usually have at home charging. I would not own an EV without being able to charge at home. There will be a larger proportion of EV owners without at home charging as adoption increases thereby increasing the usage of DC charging, not just on trips, but regularly. The increase in EV adoption will not be convenient or acceptable to the public if there are not any convenient places to charge.
 

Tony Burgh

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My normal travels of any distance normally route me through Breezewood. The Sheetz there has a handfull of Tesla chargers. Most are occupied in the afternoons I stop there. I normal stop in for a restroom break, a coffee and a bite to eat. Don’t judge me - I love their bagel sandwiches. Gas or electrons make no difference to me. Egg on a bagel, I’ll take the 20 minute break.
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