Did my dealer inadvertently hurt my battery?

[LSP]

My truck arrived at my dealer on Sunday night. I went in on Monday to do the paperwork. The truck was showing an 85% charge. I completed the paperwork and we agreed on a Thursday (tomorrow) delivery. I noticed that on Tuesday afternoon the charge was at 100%. I know that dealers are “required” to charge it up to 100% prior to delivery, but I thought they would be doing it closer to delivery. Should I be concerned that the truck will be at 100% for up to two days before I take delivery? And if so, is there anything I can even do about it?

Sponsored

 

[metroshot]

You can top off while you are with the F&I manager.

I did just that - topped off to 100% before I drove off.

BTW: There is nothing wrong with 100% charge using L2.

All dealers are to do that as part of PDI.

It's an issue if you fast charge it (L3).

 

[SteffanG]

My truck arrived at my dealer on Sunday night. I went in on Monday to do the paperwork. The truck was showing an 85% charge. I completed the paperwork and we agreed on a Thursday (tomorrow) delivery. I noticed that on Tuesday afternoon the charge was at 100%. I know that dealers are “required” to charge it up to 100% prior to delivery, but I thought they would be doing it closer to delivery. Should I be concerned that the truck will be at 100% for up to two days before I take delivery? And if so, is there anything I can even do about it?

It isn't a huge issue to charge to 100% occasionally as there is buffer built in to the battery. 100% is not truly 100% on the battery but likely somewhere around 90% charge (no one knows the true full capacity of the battery pack). DC fast charging will probably do more damage to the battery than it sitting at 100% for a day or two.
@MickeyAO would know the best answer to this question.

 

[MickeyAO]

It isn't a huge issue to charge to 100% occasionally as there is buffer built in to the battery. 100% is not truly 100% on the battery but likely somewhere around 90% charge (no one knows the true full capacity of the battery pack). DC fast charging will probably do more damage to the battery than it sitting at 100% for a day or two.
@MickeyAO would know the best answer to this question.

You're fine. Search for my previous posts on how to make the cells last forever...which I won't be following (if I ever get my freaking truck) as I plan on having fun with it for the next three years.

 

[LSP]

You're fine. Search for my previous posts on how to make the cells last forever...which I won't be following (if I ever get my freaking truck) as I plan on having fun with it for the next three years.

Great, thanks! I hope you get your freaking truck soon!

 

[rdr854]

You're fine. Search for my previous posts on how to make the cells last forever...which I won't be following (if I ever get my freaking truck) as I plan on having fun with it for the next three years.

Can you please provide the link?

 

[astricklin]

Can you please provide the link?

The search function will allow you to filter by a specific user

 

[T i h o r]

You're fine. Search for my previous posts on how to make the cells last forever...which I won't be following (if I ever get my freaking truck) as I plan on having fun with it for the next three years.

Can you please provide the link?

The search function will allow you to filter by a specific user

@rdr854 once you find it, please post it here for those of us that are too lazy to search!

 

[Regular150]

Okay, last lazy enabler by me.




https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...-drain-new-battery-to-zero.10780/#post-219738

 

[MickeyAO]

Okay, last lazy enabler by me.




https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...-drain-new-battery-to-zero.10780/#post-219738

Those are pretty good ones, but there are others that might shed more insight into my testing/thought process.

 

[Regular150]

Hey, the others can contribute a bit right! I can't give them all.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

The factory charges the battery to 100% before installation. My FordPass app was authorized (I think by mistake) the day after my truck was built, and it showed a 100% charge. You have no issue. One of the things we learned in 260k miles driving four Teslas was that the batteries like it best when driven like a rented mule - run to their extremes - I did full charges (100% is called a "Range" charge in Tesla-speak) at least weekly due to my travel cycle, and then ran it to below 10%, especially in winter, when I would sometimes get below 5 miles remaining. When doing so, the battery management system got to "see" the entire battery and I never lost much range - only a few miles in 125k on my first Tesla, and maybe 2 miles in my last, which had 38k when I traded it in on the Lightning.

The Tesla techs at three different service centers confirmed that the best strategy was to run them hard and from top to bottom - but to avoid too many DC fast chargers (less than 25% of charges if possible), and to charge to 80% or less in normal daily use. I did all of the above, had no issues.

 

[Jim Lewis]

The Tesla techs at three different service centers confirmed that the best strategy was to run them hard and from top to bottom

Then, Tesla's invented new Li-ion battery technology. Previous Li-ion technology studies, including studies published in peer-reviewed journals, show that below 20% and above 80% are harder on long-term Li-ion battery lifespan, as is running the battery at elevated temperatures. Or why does the Ford manual suggest staying between 20% and 80% and keeping your vehicle cool, protecting it from the sun, is the best strategy - and letting the vehicle cool down at home after an outing before charging it up again? And as Darren Palmer, Ford VP of the EV division, has stated in a State of Charge interview (https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...rging-healthier-for-battery.13085/post-298448), the Ford electric powertrain warranty is guaranteed IN SPITE OF, not BECAUSE OF, charging to 100% with a Level 2 charger every day for 8 years (or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first). Previous studies also show that you increase available long-term equivalent full-charge cycles FOUR or FIVE times (or more) by staying within a narrow depth of discharge. So, if you had a cell phone battery good for 800 equivalent-full-charge cycles, you might get 4,000 equivalent full-charge cycles out of your battery if you could stay within a 20% depth-of-discharge range, say, between 40% and 60% SOC, which admittedly is not practical for most users. But staying between 20% and 80% SOC is practical much of the time for EV vehicle owners - so you'll get more battery lifespan out of that.

The reason depth of discharge matters is that as a Li-ion battery is charged and discharged, its internal volume expands and contracts with a negative impact on electrode integrity. Also, at very high and very low states of charge, there is a higher level of negative secondary chemical reactions/degradation of battery electrodes. Staying within as narrow a charge range as practical minimizes the breakdown caused by expansion/contraction and undesirable side reactions at charge extremes.

Lithium iron phosphate batteries are much more tolerant of a full discharge/recharge cycle. But they have a lower power density. But that's not what we have in our Ford Lightnings.

On the dealer required prep of charging to 100%, that's what my dealer rep told me. He said, IIRC, that the Lightning ships with its battery anywhere between 40% to 70% charged. And he claimed that having the dealer charge it to 100% was an essential step in properly "conditioning" the battery. Since I'm 77 and have already had a life-threatening syncope event, I asked him what happens if the dealer does that and then, BINGO!, I'm in the hospital for 2 weeks. The guy seemed to grudgingly agree that I could take the truck home with the charge received as delivered and have the responsibility to charge it up myself to 100%. And he said if I didn't want any "courtesy" charging when the truck went it for service, I could just lock it at the highest charging level I wanted (and the dealer can't override that?).

 

[MickeyAO]

The factory charges the battery to 100% before installation. My FordPass app was authorized (I think by mistake) the day after my truck was built, and it showed a 100% charge. You have no issue. One of the things we learned in 260k miles driving four Teslas was that the batteries like it best when driven like a rented mule - run to their extremes - I did full charges (100% is called a "Range" charge in Tesla-speak) at least weekly due to my travel cycle, and then ran it to below 10%, especially in winter, when I would sometimes get below 5 miles remaining. When doing so, the battery management system got to "see" the entire battery and I never lost much range - only a few miles in 125k on my first Tesla, and maybe 2 miles in my last, which had 38k when I traded it in on the Lightning.

The Tesla techs at three different service centers confirmed that the best strategy was to run them hard and from top to bottom - but to avoid too many DC fast chargers (less than 25% of charges if possible), and to charge to 80% or less in normal daily use. I did all of the above, had no issues.

My 12 years of actual research and cycling disagree with you. A lot of people have anecdotal experience that shows there is no derogation driving like this but that is only because they don't see the ACTUAL capacity loss versus the portion that the OEM will let you see.

While driving like this, you should not have the capacity loss that would trigger a warranty replacement, but you could extend the life of the battery to double the warranty by NOT doing this.

Tesla cells have gotten better over the years, but you probably don't want to know (and I can't tell you directly) how bad the early Tesla Model S 18650 cells did in the fast-charging testing we did. If you really want to know, you can search for the SAE paper we published many years ago.

 

[Pod]

Dealers are required to charge to 100%? Oh well, only 78% on mine.

Sponsored