Why isn't the 12v battery always charged?

[Maquis]

Really poor design. Do they really think we are all going to get external 12 v chargers?

It is also a lack of trust in their own systems. The SW needs to be broken into 20 to 30 minute install chunks. You have to make an assumption that a 12v battery with a 70% (choose your number that makes sense) or higher charge can run the systems long enough to do said upgrade and then start the upgrade. Or their systems must be able to initiate a charging cycle during the upgrade.

If the 12v battery doesn't have enough charge - then initiate a charge cycle and try the upgrade again later.

I've had Tesla's in the garage for almost 5 years, I'm a member of a large Tesla club, I'm a moderator on a Tesla forum - I don't ever recall once a Tesla didn't start and install a SW update when the user initiated it or when the scheduled time hit. Never did the car say - hold my beer I need a 12v battery charge.

It's just poor design and lack of trust by the engineers for the systems to work.

If you are going to update using FDRS, putting a charger on the battery is no big deal. The only alternative would be to oversize the 12V battery above what is needed for normal use. I’d guess that less than 1% of owners will update the vehicle with FDRS.

A battery charger is not required for OTA Updates. The real solution is to get OTA working timely and reliably.

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[GDN]

If you are going to update using FDRS, putting a charger on the battery is no big deal. The only alternative would be to oversize the 12V battery above what is needed for normal use. I’d guess that less than 1% of owners will update the vehicle with FDRS.

A battery charger is not required for OTA Updates. The real solution is to get OTA working timely and reliably.

I agree with FDRS and reading those threads (especially the one over on the ICE forum), but my question is this - if some of the FDRS updates - big GUI changes, etc take a few hours to complete, how will Ford ever get them rolled out to the common truck (99% of the trucks) that owners aren't hooking up to FDRS.

I'm not sure Ford ever really intends to push those updates to all. They claim in their advertising for EV's they do, and we are seeing Mach E results, but they are very slow with it.

 

[Maquis]

I agree with FDRS and reading those threads (especially the one over on the ICE forum), but my question is this - if some of the FDRS updates - big GUI changes, etc take a few hours to complete, how will Ford ever get them rolled out to the common truck (99% of the trucks) that owners aren't hooking up to FDRS.

I'm not sure Ford ever really intends to push those updates to all. They claim in their advertising for EV's they do, and we are seeing Mach E results, but they are very slow with it.

I think we agree - OTA updating needs fixed.


ETA: I just got my survey to complete re: my Lightning purchase. The last question is an open question about what one thing Ford needs to improve on. I ripped them on OTA updating pretty good.

 

[sotek2345]

Yes - everything in the vehicle is powered by 12v except the electric motors. The HVB doesn't power any of the displays or accessories. The noise was likely the cooling pumps running.

No, and no.

Not quite true. The resistance heater and pro power onboard are both run off of the HVB (with inverters as needed). Not sure about the HVAC pumps.

 

[RickLightning]

I agree with FDRS and reading those threads (especially the one over on the ICE forum), but my question is this - if some of the FDRS updates - big GUI changes, etc take a few hours to complete, how will Ford ever get them rolled out to the common truck (99% of the trucks) that owners aren't hooking up to FDRS.

I'm not sure Ford ever really intends to push those updates to all. They claim in their advertising for EV's they do, and we are seeing Mach E results, but they are very slow with it.

I have zero expertise in FDRS. My understanding is that the OTA technology is A/B. It downloads a module update to A, with B being the old software. Then it swaps it to run A. If there is a failure, B kicks back in.

No OTA update takes hours. Many take 2 minutes. Some take longer, that's why Ford has you set the schedule to apply them when you're not using the vehicle, like 1AM. Mach-Es just got the GUI update in the past 2 weeks and it was no different than past updates as far as impact on the vehicle.

You can look in Wikipedia at the list of OTA updates. My 2022, acquired in May, has received around 15 updates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Power-Up_Version_History

 

[Grumpy2]

When WeberAuto went thru the disassembly/reassembly of the Mustang Mach-E GT battery he listed the High Voltage Common Components. This is why I thought additional HV relays would be needed to connect just the DC-DC converter before starting a large non-drivable update to prevent significant loss of SOC. Ford anticipated some updates "could take up to a few hours" (p.554).

 

[Maquis]

When WeberAuto went thru the disassembly/reassembly of the Mustang Mach-E GT battery he listed the High Voltage Common Components. This is why I thought additional HV relays would be needed to connect just the DC-DC converter before starting a large non-drivable update to prevent significant loss of SOC. Ford anticipated some updates "could take up to a few hours" (p.554).

For the Lightning, you can add Pro Power.

 

[LightningShow]

I suspect we are seeing a lot of legacy ICE assumptions baked into the 12V charging scheme almost every function of this truck

The entire 12V DC system is a legacy of ICE vehicles.

 

[Maquis]

The entire 12V DC system is a legacy of ICE vehicles.

It definitely is, but it wouldn’t be practical to run accessories such as headlights, entertainment, wipers, etc. on 400V. There had to be a subsystem at some lower voltage, so why not 12V?

 

[LightningShow]

It definitely is, but it wouldn’t be practical to run accessories such as headlights, entertainment, wipers, etc. on 400V. There had to be a subsystem at some lower voltage, so why not 12V?

Oh, i agree. There’s already an entire market of auto parts using 12v so there’s no reason to abandon it.

 

[GDN]

Not to detract from this thread, but it is relevant. This whole conversation was one that Tesla was trying to address - having to retain the 12v system when the core is 400 or higher. Everything in the auto has to be redesigned. There had been ambition to do this on the Y, but it didn't make it. They've decided it just isn't worth it, too much already known about 12 v, maybe too dangerous for other items to run at that voltage, who knows.

It will be interesting to see if we have any manufacture abandon it however in upcoming models. I don't know if Tesla has disclosed what they are working on in the Cybertruck or not, likely tightly held secrects as Ford would do too.

 

[Grumpy2]

It seems unlikely since the battery voltage is tending higher closer to 1000volts.

 

[Maquis]

Oh, i agree. There’s already an entire market of auto parts using 12v so there’s no reason to abandon it.

Not to mention powering trailer lights.

 

[queuewho]

I'm not suggesting eliminating the 12v system. I am suggesting that it be more robust, less finicky, and better managed. The whole idea of there still being a start/stop button, accessory mode still existing, etc... all of that could have been done away with. 12v, and to more extent, just having a system powered by two different sources, makes sense. But really, the car should engage the contactors automatically as soon as you interact with it. This would begin topping off the 12v. Essentially, get in the truck and it's on. This is how tesla managed to do things, the moment you wake up the car, it flips the contactors and everything is awake and on and checking itself. It's far too easy to kill the battery in this truck.

 

[sotek2345]

I'm not suggesting eliminating the 12v system. I am suggesting that it be more robust, less finicky, and better managed. The whole idea of there still being a start/stop button, accessory mode still existing, etc... all of that could have been done away with. 12v, and to more extent, just having a system powered by two different sources, makes sense. But really, the car should engage the contactors automatically as soon as you interact with it. This would begin topping off the 12v. Essentially, get in the truck and it's on. This is how tesla managed to do things, the moment you wake up the car, it flips the contactors and everything is awake and on and checking itself. It's far too easy to kill the battery in this truck.

Sorry - going to disagree with the start/stop (on/off) button. Accessory mode is useless and should go away, but there are many times I go into my truck without wanting it to turn on. Don't take that away!

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