Powertrain Malfunction/ Reduced Power

[ctuan13]

Another post were I really wish the rolling eyes could be part of the 'like' to a post. Please explain the safety 'gear' you think you would need and your plan on both charging the module to near what the other modules are at and then the plan on balancing the strings across the module. I know it SOUNDS easy, but believe me it is hard in practice. Polarization of the strings present it's own problems in getting things balanced properly (you do know about polarization, right?)

For sure, balancing lithium battery packs is much more complex than the work, rebuilds or repairs most are familiar with. That being said, the serviceability of the Lightning's battery pack and the swappable modules give me hope that by the time the pack in my Lightning is ready to give up the ghost, there will be a company or at least specialty shops offering pre-built modules or even a full rebuilt pack that I can just swap in. Because the pack itself is incredibly easy to remove and reinstall. It's getting down to the component level replacement and balancing, etc that gets much more complex.

Either way, I commend Ford for taking a reparable approach when most other manufacturers are taken the sealed up, glued/welded together approach that for all intents and purposes makes the vehicle a throwaway when the battery fails.

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[Lytning]

I watched some videos on the battery on the Lightning.

I am confident I could rebuild a module myself with some safety gear.

I am VERY happy with the design and servicibility of the pack versus alternate manu's

My dealership's EV Tech (4 year Automotive Technology degree from Weber State University) is having major issues with balancing modules, even with Ford Engineers in Dearborn assisting and use of the XMB-9640 Module Balancer. Much more is involved than exchanging modules. Also, voiding the 8 year / 100,000 mile battery pack warranty would surely occur with repairs by anyone other than Ford.

 

[ctuan13]

My dealership's EV Tech (4 year Automotive Technology degree from Weber State University) is having major issues with balancing modules, even with Ford Engineers in Dearborn assisting and use of the XMB-9640 Module Balancer. Much more is involved than exchanging modules. Also, voiding the 8 year / 100,000 mile battery pack warranty would surely occur with repairs by anyone other than Ford.

Yeah, Ford would probably void the warranty, though if you took them to court you'd probably win considering it's a violation of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

 

[YankeeCP]

Yeah I think Ford seriously underestimated the lack of qualified technicians are available and even if they are qualified how much it takes for these repairs. One full day was given as the estimate.

How long will it take?

The time needed to exchange these parts is one-full day. However, due to service scheduling requirements, your dealer may need your vehicle for a longer period of time.

 

[HJP]

My dealership's EV Tech (4 year Automotive Technology degree from Weber State University) is having major issues with balancing modules, even with Ford Engineers in Dearborn assisting and use of the XMB-9640 Module Balancer. Much more is involved than exchanging modules. Also, voiding the 8 year / 100,000 mile battery pack warranty would surely occur with repairs by anyone other than Ford.

Could you tell me what the dealer should have done in balancing. Mine came back with no indication of charging done (at least not from the app screen) at roughly the power level I dropped it off prior to replacement of a module. I know they don't have a high power charger and it was dropped at my house in less time, from the start of repair, that a level 2 charger would have taken to refill a battery if it had been drained prior to repair. Range was off (along the lines of 8 filled and one empty module) till I ran it down to near zero and then charged it up (still doesn't look quite right but close enough). Nothing on the repair description that says anything was done but not sure they would have written anything up.

 

[Gimme_my_MME]

Could you tell me what the dealer should have done in balancing. Mine came back with no indication of charging done (at least not from the app screen) at roughly the power level I dropped it off prior to replacement of a module. I know they don't have a high power charger and it was dropped at my house in less time, from the start of repair, that a level 2 charger would have taken to refill a battery if it had been drained prior to repair. Range was off (along the lines of 8 filled and one empty module) till I ran it down to near zero and then charged it up (still doesn't look quite right but close enough). Nothing on the repair description that says anything was done but not sure they would have written anything up.

If they didn't balance it, it would throw a fault. It is statistically impossible for a service array to arrive at close enough voltage that no balancing would be needed. So, no fault after the repair, you should be good

 

[Fastmikerx7]

I would always let a dealer work on the rig while under warranty.

Oh! My Mach E GT Performance loaner threw a fit at my buddies house.
I gave him a ride then we hung out for 45 minutes.
Upon restarting car, full codes/limited power/lots warnings lights etc.

Maybe I am super unlucky but a 900 mile Mach E sheeting its pants?

Back to the dealer tomorrow I guess...

 

[Lytning]

Could you tell me what the dealer should have done in balancing. Mine came back with no indication of charging done (at least not from the app screen) at roughly the power level I dropped it off prior to replacement of a module. I know they don't have a high power charger and it was dropped at my house in less time, from the start of repair, that a level 2 charger would have taken to refill a battery if it had been drained prior to repair. Range was off (along the lines of 8 filled and one empty module) till I ran it down to near zero and then charged it up (still doesn't look quite right but close enough). Nothing on the repair description that says anything was done but not sure they would have written anything up.

I have attached a link to the module balancer they use, and a photo of its data screen with my battery. I agree with Gimme_my_MME that you would very likely have gotten error codes if they did not balance the new module with the original modules. MickeyAO provides details at post #240 in this thread.
https://www.midtronics.com/ev-solutions/xmb-9640/

 

[Hammick]

Could you tell me what the dealer should have done in balancing. Mine came back with no indication of charging done (at least not from the app screen) at roughly the power level I dropped it off prior to replacement of a module. I know they don't have a high power charger and it was dropped at my house in less time, from the start of repair, that a level 2 charger would have taken to refill a battery if it had been drained prior to repair. Range was off (along the lines of 8 filled and one empty module) till I ran it down to near zero and then charged it up (still doesn't look quite right but close enough). Nothing on the repair description that says anything was done but not sure they would have written anything up.

The balancing is done when the battery pack is disconnected from the truck. Essentially it's a special balancer (see post no. 248) that balances the new module(s) with the existing modules. Since the truck is disconnected there would be record of it in EV charging history.

I recommend anyone taking their truck in for a module replacement have their truck between 40 - 50% SOC. The tech that did my repair said this is the sweet spot. He didn't elaborate on whether they have to bleed off power if the truck is above a certain SOC.

 

[Hammick]

What I want to know is whether this is a design defect or a just a bad batch of modules. If it's a design defect (like poor thermal management for instance) then this problem will continue until the pack is redesigned. I guess they might be able to fix it with software but that would be just a Band-Aid that de-rates our trucks power and/or charging. I have seen reports on these forums of owner's with April and May 2023 builds that have a module go bad. Ford says any builds past 1-3-23 aren't subject to the 23H01 program.

Ford isn't saying what the problem is and the high level supervisor I spoke with on the EV team told me they aren't giving any information because they don't want it on social media and the forums. I offered to sign an NDA but he wouldn't tell me anything. We take 3,000 plus mile road trips numerous time a year and I want to know how likely or unlikely it is that we will have another module go bad. It's certainly happened twice to other Lightning owners.

I filed a NHTSA complaint and I urge other to do the same. That's the only way we're going to get the info. Our lives were seriously disrupted when our truck thew the fault 1,200 miles from home. Had I not been self employed I would likely have lost my job. Most employers are not going to let you take three weeks off work because your truck broke down.

I love our Lightning and it's a great road tripper when all nine battery modules are healthy. In a few years there will be other choices out there. Ford knows this. I'm hoping they don't just fix it for the 2024 model year or the next generation.

 

[Fastmikerx7]

Welp. My dealer is treating me REALLY well.

Service manager is in Contact with Ford.

Plan on how to proceed with truck should happen today or early next week.

I am now in a 600 mile Mach E GT with performance pack that is white in color.
Black one I had been loaned lost a contactor or something.

Stay tuned!

 

[KurtsRPMGarage]

After 32 days at the dealer my lightning is repaired. Just picked it up and its working well. What a headache but not nearly as bad as some I have seen on here. Here is my timeline.

August 7th: Discover issues and drop off at dealer
August 9th: Dealer says I charged the truck incorrectly causing it to go into safe mode (obviously false). Dealer resets truck and gives it back to me. I get into truck and find all the original warnings still there and hand it right back to them.
August 10th: They called ford's BEV team and diagnosed that the truck has a bad module.
August 14th: I request a loaner and the dealer provides me with an ICE F150 (I didn't request one before as I was out of town much of the first week).
August 29th: Battery module arrives at dealer (I would have received my truck this week but the only EV certified tech at the dealer called out sick all week)
September 8th: Truck repaired and picked up.

There were lots of phone calls and app updates in-between but I won't bore you with the details. Overall I'm bummed but I still love the truck. Having an ICE loaner just reaffirmed how much I prefer the lightning over an ICE F150. I really hope this doesn't happen again.

Build Date 11/2/2022
23 F150 Lightning Pro Standard Range
Issue occurred at 12,050 miles on the odometer

 

[Lytning]

What I want to know is whether this is a design defect or a just a bad batch of modules. If it's a design defect (like poor thermal management for instance) then this problem will continue until the pack is redesigned. I guess they might be able to fix it with software but that would be just a Band-Aid that de-rates our trucks power and/or charging. I have seen reports on these forums of owner's with April and May 2023 builds that have a module go bad. Ford says any builds past 1-3-23 aren't subject to the 23H01 program.

Ford isn't saying what the problem is and the high level supervisor I spoke with on the EV team told me they aren't giving any information because they don't want it on social media and the forums. I offered to sign an NDA but he wouldn't tell me anything. We take 3,000 plus mile road trips numerous time a year and I want to know how likely or unlikely it is that we will have another module go bad. It's certainly happened twice to other Lightning owners.

I filed a NHTSA complaint and I urge other to do the same. That's the only way we're going to get the info. Our lives were seriously disrupted when our truck thew the fault 1,200 miles from home. Had I not been self employed I would likely have lost my job. Most employers are not going to let you take three weeks off work because your truck broke down.

I love our Lightning and it's a great road tripper when all nine battery modules are healthy. In a few years there will be other choices out there. Ford knows this. I'm hoping they don't just fix it for the 2024 model year or the next generation.

I am sorry that you and your family had to go through such a major disruption. I don't understand how Ford thinks it is in their best interest, or us owners' best interest, to withhold important safety information.

I also experienced the extreme audio noise issue with my Lightning, and my ears ring 24/7 as a result of it. I drive around with ear plugs on the center console, and ear muffs on the back seat. I warn every passenger who gets in my vehicle of the safety risks to their hearing. I have warned other owners on this forum. Ford has never acknowledged the noise issue, nor advised me if it has been fixed. And they certainly have not apologized for either the audio noise or battery module issues, or the 58 days and counting that my $100,000 Platinum Lightning has been at the dealership so far this year.

And now I will have to also warn every passenger that we may not actually complete our intended journey, and we may get stranded away from home due to HV battery failure. Ford actually packages (markets?) the battery module safety issue as a "Customer Service Program", as if they are doing us a favor for repairing our new vehicles before they burn down themselves and our houses.

When enough owners file complaints with NHTSA, the facts will be ultimately revealed. And Ford will have accumulated massive amounts of ill-will from owners like us who they disregard and disrespect. Ford must believe their approach is good for business.

 

[dgargano]

Please update us. I have a ‘23 Lariat with April build date too.

Well friends, I had an appointment on Friday with a local dealer (I live in Phoenix, AZ area). The service rep was super nice btw. She told me that I would have to leave the truck for service for a minimum of 2-4 weeks. They didn't have any loaner cars- that was a 2 week backlog. But Ford would reimburse for a rental car "but its a whole process." What does that mean? Well Ford would reimburse up to $60 day, but you would have to use Enterprise rentals only, and have to get a Ford vehicle. Guess what happened next, there are no Ford vehicles left at any of my local Enterprise agencies. So no loaners and no rentals in my area, real nice! Why the backlog- she said both of my local Ford dealers only have two techs trained to work on all their BEVs, and they had no plan on training more. She mentioned that since the power train error went away quickly and has not come on again, its most likely a one time error or bug, and safe to drive because if there is really an issue with a BEV they just stop working. Some of their frustrated customers have done this buy back program, so that is a thing. I ended up not leaving the truck at the dealer because this is my only vehicle. Not comfortable with my decision but I have no other choice. I'm a little frustrated but still love my truck, have no plan on selling back. Hopefully Ford can figure out their logistic/supply chain/resourcing issue. I know Tesla had similar issues when they first came out. But reality is I think this is just the new world (well at least where I live). I hope you all have better luck in your area.

 

[Phineas Magliozzi]

Well friends, I had an appointment on Friday with a local dealer (I live in Phoenix, AZ area). The service rep was super nice btw. She told me that I would have to leave the truck for service for a minimum of 2-4 weeks. They didn't have any loaner cars- that was a 2 week backlog. But Ford would reimburse for a rental car "but its a whole process." What does that mean? Well Ford would reimburse up to $60 day, but you would have to use Enterprise rentals only, and have to get a Ford vehicle. Guess what happened next, there are no Ford vehicles left at any of my local Enterprise agencies. So no loaners and no rentals in my area, real nice! Why the backlog- she said both of my local Ford dealers only have two techs trained to work on all their BEVs, and they had no plan on training more. She mentioned that since the power train error went away quickly and has not come on again, its most likely a one time error or bug, and safe to drive because if there is really an issue with a BEV they just stop working. Some of their frustrated customers have done this buy program, so that is a thing. I ended up not leaving the truck at the dealer because this is my only vehicle. Not comfortable with my decision but I have no other choice. I'm a little frustrated but still love my truck, have no plan on selling back. Hopefully Ford can figure out their logistic/supply chain/resourcing issue. I know Tesla had similar issues when they first came out. But reality is I think this is just the new world (well at least where I live). I hope you all have better luck in your area.

I too was told no loaners are available and "only Ford" for the rental car, but a call and a few emails to the BEV team resulted in a commitment from them to reimburse me for any vehicle that I rented, as long as it was at or below $65/day. Oh, and I get to pay the taxes, those aren't being reimbursed. Strange.

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