Tax credit form - did dealer screw this up?

[tls]

It's hard to blame anyone who has problems using ID.me - an outrageous, rent-seeking private company that has somehow worked with corrupt bureaucrats and legislators to insert itself mandatorily into interactions between private citizens and the government.

In my experience, ID.me's systems seldom work the first time without manual intervention, and when help is required, it can take at least hours, and at worst days or more for them to get back to you. And if you hang up on them while they're allegedly "just about" to help you (a condition that I have seen last 3+ hours) they send you straight to the back of the queue.

It's not hard to see why a dealership would hesitate to lose one or more employees' time for a day or more dealing with this. It sucks for everyone involved. But there is literally nothing to do but lean on the dealership to address it anyway. Corruption sucks, but ID.me have corruptly entrenched themselves deeply enough it's pretty unlikely this will get better any time soon.

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[TheBertShow]

I understand all that, but how the system is programmed and how humans react to it functioning correctly or not may create some angst next spring, not everyone deals with bureaucracy positively.

I'm interested in as much feedback from everyone filing for credit or validation of the POS claim next year when they file their returns.

Agreed. I deal with government bureaucracies almost daily in my profession-I'm not leaving anything to chance. Will I be able to report the tax credit regardless of what the dealer does? In all likelihood, yes. But I'm not risking anything and I want it to be done right before the sale. There is literally no incentive for the dealer to do the right thing 6 months after I walk out the (proverbial) door.

 

[TheBertShow]

I don't believe there are any documents to upload to report the sale. The portal has blanks where the dealer types in the information. But to set up access to the portal, a dealership employee has to set up an account using ID.me. They have to upload some identification to do that.

So Form 15400 is not uploaded to report the sale? It sounds like they have done the ID.me. account portion of it, or so they say

 

[RocketGhost]

So Form 15400 is not uploaded to report the sale? It sounds like they have done the ID.me. account portion of it, or so they say

No. The dealer fills in blanks on the portal web page with the VIN, sale date, buyer name, buyer SSN, etc. and when they click submit the information is upload to the IRS. After submitting the portal generates Form 15400 that they then print and give to you. The form just shows all the data that the dealer entered. It's the confirmation of reporting.

When the dealer inputs the VIN, the portal does a real-time check for eligibility. The manufacturer sends the IRS the VINs of eligible vehicles and the portal cross checks against that list. If the VIN is not on that list, or the VIN has already been reported as sold, the portal immediately says the vehicle is not eligible and the dealer can't continue with the sale report. That's why the IRS recommends reporting the sale before it's finalized. If the vehicle isn't actually eligible the dealer and buyer need to know that before completing the sale. If the sale doesn't happen, say it's eligible but the buyer backs out for whatever reason, the dealer can void the sale report.

You don't need to submit Form 15400 with your taxes. It's just for your records. But it is proof that the vehicle is eligible for the credit and that the dealer properly reported it. The dealer is required to give the form to you.

I recommend that if anyone is planning on taking the credit at tax time, do not leave the dealer without Form 15400 in your hand. This requires the person with portal access to be there and to actually do it. I would not trust that they will do it if you aren't standing over their shoulder threatening to walk away from the sale. If they don't do it when you buy, go back in person within the next three days and don't leave without it.

 

[climateguy]

IRS literature, i.e. How to Claim a Clean Vehicle Tax Credit refers to "time of purchase", and "when you take possession of the vehicle" as if they are the same date. On the other hand, in Topic C buyers are warned they can't "claim" the credit until they "take possession" or "place the vehicle into service".

I'd add a note if anyone was insisting on my signature to place this order that I am not committed until I receive the IRS approval of the report the seller is required to submit.

When I bought my 2024 Flash the dealer went to the IRS website in front of me, he filled in whatever he needed to, and I checked some boxes "attesting" all the info pertaining to my situation was true, and the report was approved instantly. Only after that did I sign to buy.

I'd tell the seller its not that hard to learn how to do this. Whatever excuse they were handing out, I'd start to walk away.

Unless your deal is so good that losing $7500 doesn't discourage you.

There is wording on IRS documents that I've seen that appears to allow wiggle room for screwups. But almost all statements from the IRS say you don't get the tax credit unless within 3 days of the sale the seller reports the sale and receives IRS confirmation.

Since there appears to be some confusion about the significance of the date of the order and the date of taking possession, the way to ensure you get the credit is to insist you are not committed to buy until you see the IRS confirmation that everything is OK.

 

[chl]

I’m buying one of the last ‘23 Lariat ER’s from Koons Sterling Ford in VA. Having it shipped to me in GA. Haven’t been impressed with them at all in terms of competency but they’re giving me a great deal and covering the shipping.

One thing that im questioning is how they’re handling the tax credit issue. Said they can’t bake the tax credit into sales price bc they weren’t a dealer on the list or something to that effect. Ok, fine, I’ll take it at tax time. But what’s got me concerned (aside from why they supposedly can’t attach it to the sales price) is that they’re using a seller form that says 2023 AND it says must be submitted to IRS by Jan 15. 2024. Obviously we’re well past that.

I’ve also read somewhere that this form must be submitted in 3 days from date of sale (could have that wrong but…). As you’ll see date of sale is 8/30/24.

My point is I don’t trust this dealership enough to a) not screw up and file the incorrect paperwork; and b) once they’ve done the sale and are so far away they won’t have any incentive to make it right if they so screw it up.

yes I could hire a lawyer to fix it if that happens, but I’m a lawyer myself-it’s just a headache. Ask me how I know…

Anyone out there who can shed some light on this? I’ve attached the form. I’d certainly appreciate it if so!!

I am also an atty. And I have done the earlier EV tax credit before for my 2012 Leaf back in the day.

I believe there is a way to still get the credit even if the dealer did not give you the forms (from the IRS web site):


Step 4: If you didn't get a time-of-sale report: Contact your seller
If you didn't get a time-of-sale report at the time of purchase or you lost it, contact the seller to get a copy of the report.
If you can't get a copy from the seller and more than 3 days have passed since the purchase date, proceed to Step 5.

Step 5: File Form 8936 with your tax return
You don't need a printed copy of the time-of-sale report to qualify for the credit.
However, you will need to file Form 8936, Clean Vehicle Credits when you file your tax return for the year in which you took delivery of the vehicle. You must file the form whether you transferred the credit at the time of sale or you're claiming the credit on your return.
If the return is rejected due to Form 8936, ensure the VIN was input correctly. Note there are no letters “O”, “Q” or “I” in a VIN. If the VIN was input correctly and you believe the vehicle is eligible, attach a file or explanation to substantiate the purchase before resubmitting the return.

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/how-to-claim-a-clean-vehicle-tax-credit

 

[TheBertShow]

So as an update, Ford bailed out the dealer-and not in the way you'd expect.

Ford extended the 0% 72 mos deal through the end of September. So, they don't have to make the sale date 9/3/24 which would've required them to get the reporting to IRS by tomorrow. Thus it's not as time-sensitive of a situation as it was earlier.

As for the dealer, they're still talking to this guy who's talking to that guy who's talking to Ford corporate, etc. So, we'll see how it goes. I'm not a fan of this dealer by any stretch, but like I said, it's the exact truck I want-color, packages, etc. that I couldn't get on a '24, i.e. with the '23's the 511A package on Lariat's most everything I want comes standard, plus the charge pro station, stone gray color hadn't been discontinued, etc. Not to mention the price is sweeter. I may browse around on AutoTrader and see what I can find, but things were slim when I last looked.

Thank all of you for all your help! I'll let you know how this all will go down once it's all set in stone one way or the other.

 

[TaxmanHog]

So as an update, Ford bailed out the dealer-and not in the way you'd expect.

Ford extended the 0% 72 mos deal through the end of September. So, they don't have to make the sale date 9/3/24 which would've required them to get the reporting to IRS by tomorrow. Thus it's not as time-sensitive of a situation as it was earlier.

As for the dealer, they're still talking to this guy who's talking to that guy who's talking to Ford corporate, etc. So, we'll see how it goes. I'm not a fan of this dealer by any stretch, but like I said, it's the exact truck I want-color, packages, etc. that I couldn't get on a '24, i.e. with the '23's the 511A package on Lariat's most everything I want comes standard, plus the charge pro station, stone gray color hadn't been discontinued, etc. Not to mention the price is sweeter. I may browse around on AutoTrader and see what I can find, but things were slim when I last looked.

Thank all of you for all your help! I'll let you know how this all will go down once it's all set in stone one way or the other.

Thanks for persisting and moving this BILLION dollar company into the 21st century, your steadfastness is being rewarded by having them move the goal post on rates while CORPORATE big-wigs walking these folks down the garden path. I'm still amazed that this BILLION dollar company hasn't figured it all out by now!

 

[hajalie24]

I don’t think it will be an issue like people think, could it be yes of course.

The three day portal is for -point of sale and really for the dealer to get the 7500 credit asap vice you getting in at tax file time.

Right on the IRS website says if you didn’t get one or it’s after the five day just file the tax credit like every other year

I’m sure the rejects will be the people that claim a platinum , Rivian , Tesla that is well over 80k limit and irs 95% files that get approved from software vice a person will know they don’t qualify.

When I file and if it gets reject I’ll upload my paperwork that shows my truck msrp was under 80k and the second page in the fille will have a middle finger attached to it. Maybe I’ll get an irs agent to chuckle

Thanks, I don't think I got the form from the dealer but I'm not too worried, and you made me worry even less citing evidence.

 

[RocketGhost]

I believe there is a way to still get the credit even if the dealer did not give you the form (from the IRS web site):

The dealer not giving you the form is not the same scenario as the dealer not reporting the sale. That guidance addresses the situation when the dealer reported the sale, got Form 15400 (the time of sale report) as confirmation, and just didn't deliver the form to the buyer. The form is not required for the buyer to receive the credit; it is for the buyer's records and is not submitted with their tax return.

Form 8936 is filled out by the buyer when filing their taxes. It's not a form the dealer generates and gives to the buyer.

 

[TheBertShow]

Friday update: I asked the new car sales manager (4th or 5th person I've spoken to at this point) for an update and got this response (copied and pasted verbatim):

I have a meeting today address this issue with Ford and the IRS. I am hoping the website gets resolved and we are actually able to start doing the reporting. I will keep you posted.

So...am I wrong in interpreting that as they have NEVER done any reporting properly??? Wow...

 

[chl]

The dealer not giving you the form is not the same scenario as the dealer not reporting the sale. That guidance addresses the situation when the dealer reported the sale, got Form 15400 (the time of sale report) as confirmation, and just didn't deliver the form to the buyer. The form is not required for the buyer to receive the credit; it is for the buyer's records and is not submitted with their tax return.

Form 8936 is filled out by the buyer when filing their taxes. It's not a form the dealer generates and gives to the buyer.

Maybe.
But it does not say that explicitly, that the dealer has to have reported the sale for you to get the credit.

The dealer has to/must/is supposed to give you the report and report the sale within 3 days to the IRS.

But read it again:

" When you take possession of the vehicle, the seller must give you a time-of-sale report and a copy of the confirmation the IRS provides when it accepts the time-of-sale report.

This gives you:

• Proof of your purchase's eligibility for the credit, the amount of the credit available for the specific VIN you are purchasing, and whether the credit was transferred to the dealer.
• Confirmation that the dealer reported the sale to the IRS within the required 3-day period.

"If you can't get a copy from the seller and more than 3 days have passed since the purchase date, proceed to Step 5."

So in that case, the seller did NOT give you the report and more than the 3 days of the requirement have passed.

Never reporting it or not reporting it before you file your taxes at least, qualifies as "more than 3 days" doesn't it?

As an atty, I'd be glad to argue that if I had to.

 

[TaxmanHog]

So...am I wrong in interpreting that as they have NEVER done any reporting properly??? Wow...

That's the read I'm taking from the statement ...... a BILLION DOLLAR company, shameful but at least they're addressing this issue finally!

 

[RocketGhost]

Maybe.
But it does not say that explicitly, that the dealer has to have reported the sale for you to get the credit.

The dealer has to/must/is supposed to give you the report and report the sale within 3 days to the IRS.

On this page:

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/clean-vehicle-credit-seller-or-dealer-requirements

The IRS states on that page that "For a buyer to receive a tax credit, sellers and dealers must report clean vehicle credit information to the buyer at the time of sale and to the IRS."

It also sets forth that the dealer has two separate requirements: They must report the sale within 3 days, and the must furnish the report to the buyer within 3 days of submission.

It seems like while dealers have 3 days to report, the IRS guidance is based on an assumption (which is their recommendation) that the sale is reported at the same time as the sale. In that case they would have 3 days from the sale to give the buyer the report. But in reality, they have 6: 3 to report and 3 more to deliver the report to the buyer.

I don't believe the IRS guidance is 100% clear. It doesn't explicitly address the situation of a dealer not reporting the sale. Folks will just have to find out when they file and see if their return gets booted back. But I predict that lots of dealers didn't report, and the IRS will keep the buyers from getting screwed.

 

[TheBertShow]

Maybe.
But it does not say that explicitly, that the dealer has to have reported the sale for you to get the credit.

The dealer has to/must/is supposed to give you the report and report the sale within 3 days to the IRS.

But read it again:

" When you take possession of the vehicle, the seller must give you a time-of-sale report and a copy of the confirmation the IRS provides when it accepts the time-of-sale report.

This gives you:

• Proof of your purchase's eligibility for the credit, the amount of the credit available for the specific VIN you are purchasing, and whether the credit was transferred to the dealer.
• Confirmation that the dealer reported the sale to the IRS within the required 3-day period.

"If you can't get a copy from the seller and more than 3 days have passed since the purchase date, proceed to Step 5."

So in that case, the seller did NOT give you the report and more than the 3 days of the requirement have passed.

Never reporting it or not reporting it before you file your taxes at least, qualifies as "more than 3 days" doesn't it?

As an atty, I'd be glad to argue that if I had to.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/taxpros/fs-2024-26.pdf

@chl scroll down to bottom of Page 20 of this FAQ straight from the horse's mouth. It doesn't cite the relevant IRC section, but it does indeed say seller has to report it:

Q30. Is every new and previously owned clean vehicle sale required to be reported even if the buyer chooses not to transfer the credit? (added July 26, 2024)

A30. Yes, dealers of new clean vehicles and previously owned clean vehicles must meet the seller reporting requirements for those vehicles to be eligible for a credit under sections 30D and 25E. For eligible clean vehicles placed in service on or after January 1, 2024, the dealer must submit all reports through IRS Energy Credits Online within 3 calendar days of the date of sale. The dealer must also provide the buyer with a copy of the accepted seller report submitted to IRS Energy Credits Online within 3 calendar days of the date of submission. Commercial clean vehicle transactions do not need to be reported to IRS Energy Credits Online.

Topic I: Registering a dealer/seller: Seller reporting and Clean Vehicle Tax Credit transfers

Q1. May a buyer claim the New or Previously Owned Clean Vehicle Tax Credit if the dealer or seller of the vehicle is not registered with the IRS? (added Oct. 6, 2023)

A1. No. Starting for vehicles placed in service Jan. 1, 2024 or later, buyers will only be able to claim credits if the seller has registered with the IRS and successfully submits a seller report through IRS Energy Credits Online. This submission is done at the time of sale through IRS Energy Credits Online, and the seller must provide a copy of the successfully submitted seller report to the buyer.

(Emphasis added) (I know you'll know what that means

And I hear you on everything you're saying. But obviously it's conflicting as all get out. And I'd argue like hell for it, but you know as well as I do that if we're needing to bring in lawyers to argue about it it is definitely about as clear as mud.

Point is I don't want to have to get a lawyer involved. I know as well as anyone how that shit goes and I know you do too. It also shouldn't be that complicated where, as @TaxmanHog said earlier, this is a BILLION dollar auto conglomerate we're talking about here, and here I am - a backwoods southern lawyer who is having to tell them how to do their job. Go figure.

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