SunRun Require PV (Photovoltaic) system with F150 Lightning use as home back-up power

[aika1]

It depends. Solar panels generate DC directly, but many installations use "microinverters" which are located at the solar panels and convert each panel's output to AC. In this type of installation no other inverter is needed, unless there is battery backup. See below why this is relevant.



The Ford CSS Pro doesn't do Level 3 charging, according to what I've read about it anyway, so it doesn't have to convert to DC in its normal usage mode. I think they must have some way of passing the DC, if it comes up the cable from the vehicle, to a separate inverter. I think this is why they are talking about having to have an inverter. I don't see why the CSS Pro would have a DC to AC inverter already built in. Up til now that hasn't been needed and it would be costly to have that feature if nobody was using it. Exactly how this hookup from the CSS to an inverter goes is not entirely clear.



This is needed when there is a battery in the system, especially a microinverter-based system, because as you say, batteries are DC devices. The microinverters at the solar panels generate AC which then must be converted by a central inverter back to DC to charge the battery, and when the battery is in use it must convert from DC to AC to power the house. This is how an "AC coupled" system like the Powerwall works, as I understand it anyway.



My SolarEdge inverter does not require a separate transfer switch. It has its own internal switch and disconnects from the grid when the grid is down so that it can safely put battery power onto the house circuits. Inverters not meant to use a battery have to "see" grid power in order to put energy onto their outputs, as a safety feature for electrical workers. To make such a system work when the grid is down, the system must be disconnected from the grid, and then a fake grid power signal has to be put on the wires to make the inverter think it is connected and can therefore switch on and generate AC.

some of that is semantics. The microinverters you speak of are still inverters, they're just stuck on your roof and aggregated in an AC Combiner box elsewhere.

I didn't know about the CSS Pro only doing Level 2, but I guess that makes sense. In that case, they may be relying on the Vehicles onboard charger, which functions as an inverter. So they'll just use the AC from the charger up to the car's charger/inverter unit.
Onboard Charger | Tesla

I wonder if the CSS Pro will just be the conduit to the house and use the vehicles onboard charger/inverter when needed. we'll have to wait and see.

The Solaredge system you have is slick. The Energy Hub acts as an Automatic Transfer Switch in the sense that it's tricking the inverter and optimizers to continue outputting by making it think it's still "grid-tied" but most people have the older systems that will need to have an external unit.



Regardless, I think folks will have to wait and see the CSS Pro and then work out the integration. Good luck, all!

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[skaphan]

some of that is semantics. The microinverters you speak of are still inverters, they're just stuck on your roof and aggregated in an AC Combiner box elsewhere.

I think maybe I wasn't clear why I brought that up. Yes, sure, they are inverters. You were talking about how some inverters need to convert AC to DC. In a system like mine, from SolarEdge, there is no need for this as the DC from the solar panels directly charges the battery. In an AC coupled system, which typically uses microinverters and then another central inverter if there is a battery, the central inverter DOES need to convert AC to DC and back again to charge and use the battery.

I didn't know about the CSS Pro only doing Level 2, but I guess that makes sense. In that case, they may be relying on the Vehicles onboard charger, which functions as an inverter. So they'll just use the AC from the charger up to the car's charger/inverter unit.
Onboard Charger | Tesla

In the case of the Ford truck, having read around I am pretty sure the high power option sends DC back up to the charging station.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/...ectric-pickup-intelligent-backup-power-house/

Provided the Lightning is plugged in, Ford's Intelligent Backup Power system works automatically (though you can manually configure it if you prefer), switching on when there's an electrical interruption. It feeds power from the truck's prodigious battery pack back to the 80-amp, 240-volt home charger, then the juice gets routed to an inverter, which magically transforms it from DC to AC, and finally that sweet, sweet electricity gets routed to all the plugs, lights and appliances in your home. It's pretty neat stuff.

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...htning-home-backup-power-what-tesla-powerwall

To get this functionality delivered and installed without fuss, Ford is planning to offer a zero-down Sunrun solar package that includes rooftop solar as well as the inverter. Sunrun, as Ford’s home partner, would install the inverter at a discounted price even if the homeowner opts not to get solar.

 

[buttah_hustle]

OK, I have been monitoring this thread and created an account just to post here.

I am planning on using V2H with my Lightning and am having a new solar array (and Inverter) installed next month at my home. Using a local installer who I trust (not super interested in working with a big outfit like SunRun.)

Here are the details of my soon-to-be solar array (in western North Carolina):

9.18 kW -- 27 Tesla Hanwha Qcell 340

Inverter: SolarEdge (not sure of model) with 7.6 kW export capacity

I'm planning on getting the Pro Model Lightning, SR Battery

-----

I'd like to use my Lighning as a battery backup for my home in the event of a power outage. Mainly just for lighting, electronics, and refrigerator. I have a woodstove as my primary heat source and it does not get that hot that we can't use fans where I live. And the only hot tub I will ever get is a wood-burning one

-----
Questions for the experts on this thread:

-- I'll have to have some electrical work done for a transfer switch somehow connected to the inverter by an electrician or the solar install folks. Is this correct?

-- I *will* need the 80A Charge Station Pro. Is this correct?

-- I *will not* need to get the 9.6kW Pro Power Onboard upgrade. Is this correct?

-- I *can* use the SolarEdge Inverter as a part of the solar install to convert the DC coming from the Lightning to AC (in some way connected to the Transfer Switch.) Is this correct?

-- Should I check with the Solar Installers to ask for any upgrades/specs on the installed SolarEdge inverter to make sure that it is set up to handle the Ford Integration?

Thanks for all your insight!

 

[RLXXI]

OK, I have been monitoring this thread and created an account just to post here.

I am planning on using V2H with my Lightning and am having a new solar array (and Inverter) installed next month at my home. Using a local installer who I trust (not super interested in working with a big outfit like SunRun.)

Here are the details of my soon-to-be solar array (in western North Carolina):

9.18 kW -- 27 Tesla Hanwha Qcell 340

Inverter: SolarEdge (not sure of model) with 7.6 kW export capacity

I'm planning on getting the Pro Model Lightning, SR Battery

-----

I'd like to use my Lighning as a battery backup for my home in the event of a power outage. Mainly just for lighting, electronics, and refrigerator. I have a woodstove as my primary heat source and it does not get that hot that we can't use fans where I live. And the only hot tub I will ever get is a wood-burning one

-----
Questions for the experts on this thread:

-- I'll have to have some electrical work done for a transfer switch somehow connected to the inverter by an electrician or the solar install folks. Is this correct?

-- I *will* need the 80A Charge Station Pro. Is this correct?

-- I *will not* need to get the 9.6kW Pro Power Onboard upgrade. Is this correct?

-- I *can* use the SolarEdge Inverter as a part of the solar install to convert the DC coming from the Lightning to AC (in some way connected to the Transfer Switch.) Is this correct?

-- Should I check with the Solar Installers to ask for any upgrades/specs on the installed SolarEdge inverter to make sure that it is set up to handle the Ford Integration?

Thanks for all your insight!

Have you checked your states limit for residential solar? In my state at the time of install, is limited to 6kW output. I told them when they came out I wanted my entire roof covered and that's when they hit me with reality so this is all they could install.

The array came with all the components required for operation including the inverter.

I also have an automatic switch that came with a whole home generator I had installed. I'll have my local electrician come out and wire up the truck charger to the system to act as back up in case of generator failure in the event of grid loss (has happened before) if it's possible.

As it stands now the switch automatically detects grid voltage so when it drops out, the genset automatically starts itself and begins feeding the house. The inverter stops the array from feeding the grid when the grid is down as well.

 

[F150_Xpress]

I was told you will NOT need solar panels to use the F150 Lightings V2H capabilities at the recent Ford F150 Lightning event in Palo Alto - this was directly from the Sun Run spokeswoman I talked to.

 

[RLXXI]

I was told you will NOT need solar panels to use the F150 Lightings V2H capabilities at the recent Ford F150 Lightning event in Palo Alto - this was directly from the Sun Run spokeswoman I talked to.

Of course not. Wouldn't make any sense except to the Sunrun salesman trying to boost his quota.

 

[skaphan]

Questions for the experts on this thread:

-- I'll have to have some electrical work done for a transfer switch somehow connected to the inverter by an electrician or the solar install folks. Is this correct?

since you plan to use the AC outlets on the truck or a generator, yes. If you were going to use the 9.6kW DC output and your solar inverter, I don't think you need one separate from your solaredge inverter.

-- I *will* need the 80A Charge Station Pro. Is this correct?

you'll need some charging station for charging purposes but if you don't plan to use the 9.6 kW output, you don't necessarily need that one.

-- I *will not* need to get the 9.6kW Pro Power Onboard upgrade. Is this correct?

It depends on how much of a load you want to power. 2.4kW is probably not enough for your whole house.

-- I *can* use the SolarEdge Inverter as a part of the solar install to convert the DC coming from the Lightning to AC (in some way connected to the Transfer Switch.) Is this correct?

If you want to use the 9.6kW DC output, you will need it. If not, then not.

-- Should I check with the Solar Installers to ask for any upgrades/specs on the installed SolarEdge inverter to make sure that it is set up to handle the Ford Integration?

It's probably not a bad idea, but I doubt there's anything especially magical about the Sunrun ones that SolarEdge can't do.

 

[buttah_hustle]

Have you checked your states limit for residential solar? In my state at the time of install, is limited to 6kW output. I told them when they came out I wanted my entire roof covered and that's when they hit me with reality so this is all they could install.

Wow, that's a shame about the limit. Our state has no such limit (or at least I did not approach it) so I am good to go

That looks like a similar setup to what I'll have once installed (although mine will be installed indoors.) Much appreciated!

 

[Luke the Duke]

On a somewhat related note, my power has been out for 3 days and I excited to have an EV with 240v out so I can power my water pump!

 

[Kuzbad]

I've been following this thread too, as I've been trying to figure out how my system will work.

I have a SolarEdge HD Wave SE10000H inverter (along with Silfab panels and SolarEdge optimizers if that matters). I do not have any battery backup currently.

Is it possible that there will there be a way to connect the Ford charger so that if power is off, I can use solar to charge the Lightning directly, and the Lightning can also act as a battery backup? It seems like there might need to be another inverter in the mix somewhere..

 

[Nick Gerteis]

Inverters not meant to use a battery have to "see" grid power in order to put energy onto their outputs, as a safety feature for electrical workers

As is the case with the microinverters in my grid tied 12 kW system. My question: do you think the AC output of the Lightning will be a “clean” enough signal for them to kick back on after i’ve flipped the transfer switch during an outage, with the truck feeding the non-grid end of that switch?

 

[JBauer]

Ok folks. Here is the correct answer for the OP. I’m also an electrician, so this thread got my wheels turning. I was trying to figure out why an extra inverter would be needed, simply to emergency power your home via the change cable. Because that Would NOT be nearly as simple as Ford stated it to be.

Sunrun is only partnering with Ford to install the Solar Aray system and home electrical management system, so the lightning can act like a Tesla Powerwall and buffer power coming from the solar panels.

All FORD literature states that the 80 amp pro Charger can back feed your home once the transfer switch has been activated.

Sunrun will not be installing the chargers only, which is why they told you they are only selling you a solar array + installing the charger. Because that’s the only reason you would call Sunrunthat’s the only reason they are partnered with Ford, for the solar panels.

The F-150 Lightning Has dual inverters onboard, and NO literature states that the home management system (inverter) is required to power your home during a blackout. It only makes mention of a transfer switch.

And a transfer switch is basically exactly like a main breaker, but it switches to a different power source.

100 bucks says the F-150 Lightning Charger is smart enough to check the resistance on the line to determine if it is still connected to the grid, and thus it will probably give you an error saying “please engage transfer switch” or something of that nature.

I would be willing to bet you can just turn the main off, and the truck will power your house via the 80 amp charger.

Nothing states any extra equipment is needed, except transfer switch, and that’s NOT an inverter.

I’ll take your hundred bucks.

You can charge the Lightning via a typical J1772 charger which supplies AC power to the vehicle. The onboard inverters convert that to DC.

Problem is J1772 doesn’t support bi-directional flow. CCS combo 1 adds two DC pins to the bottom of the plug. This is where the additional inverter built into the charging station is. CCS will eventually support vehicle to home and vehicle to grid charging. So Ford is likely designing this under a draft specification.

It’s extremely unlikely the charger is IEEE 1547 rated to detect grid connections, and those are actually designed to do the opposite— they shut off your solar system during a loss of grid. A transfer switch is ALWAYS required because you cannot detect “the resistance of the line” without an impedance based relay, at which point you would be back feeding the secondary putting utility workers at risk.

 

[skaphan]

As is the case with the microinverters in my grid tied 12 kW system. My question: do you think the AC output of the Lightning will be a “clean” enough signal for them to kick back on after i’ve flipped the transfer switch during an outage, with the truck feeding the non-grid end of that switch?

I don't know, that's a good question. There are various qualities of inverters out there. The ones that say they generate "pure sine waves" are better and more expensive. I don't know what Ford is promising. It's usually more sensitive electronic items that are going depend on clean 60Hz power. I think for the kinds of things like power tools that people will typically plug into a truck it might not matter quite so much.

 

[skaphan]

I've been following this thread too, as I've been trying to figure out how my system will work.

I have a SolarEdge HD Wave SE10000H inverter (along with Silfab panels and SolarEdge optimizers if that matters). I do not have any battery backup currently.

Is it possible that there will there be a way to connect the Ford charger so that if power is off, I can use solar to charge the Lightning directly, and the Lightning can also act as a battery backup? It seems like there might need to be another inverter in the mix somewhere..

I am not familiar with that inverter, but looking at the documentation, it appears it only has one AC connection, which is meant for the grid side of things (as opposed to critical loads the inverter could power with the grid down). If that is the case, the inverter is going to shut down when it does not see grid power. This is for the safety of electrical workers. If I'm wrong about the inverter details, and it is possible to have some circuits hooked up as "critical loads" somehow, that the inverter can power with the grid down, you could install your charger on the critical load side, and then it is just a matter of if your PV system is generating enough power. I am not sure how those chargers do with variable power as comes out of a no-battery PV array, so that's another thing you'd have to check out.

 

[Nick Gerteis]

I don't know, that's a good question. There are various qualities of inverters out there. The ones that say they generate "pure sine waves" are better and more expensive. I don't know what Ford is promising. It's usually more sensitive electronic items that are going depend on clean 60Hz power. I think for the kinds of things like power tools that people will typically plug into a truck it might not matter quite so much.

Fully agreed that a regular inverter will run most anything. Power tools, TV, I’ve done those. And I’m sure Ford will provide the same quality AC electricity. But will it be good enough to trick the PV micro inverters into producing? I’m sure someone will try this with a spare panel and micro and will let us know. Looking forward to seeing it!

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