SunRun Require PV (Photovoltaic) system with F150 Lightning use as home back-up power

[skaphan]

Fully agreed that a regular inverter will run most anything. Power tools, TV, I’ve done those. And I’m sure Ford will provide the same quality AC electricity. But will it be good enough to trick the PV micro inverters into producing? I’m sure someone will try this with a spare panel and micro and will let us know. Looking forward to seeing it!

Trying it is the best way to find out. Some people use a UPS for "grid forming" for their solar inverters like this. But if you do this you should make sure your household circuits are separated from the grid, via a transfer switch or mechanical interlock between breakers for the generator (or other AC source like an inverter on a vehicle) and the main breakers so both cannot be on at the same time. A grid-tied solar inverter synchronizes with the grid and shuts off if the grid goes down. Other AC sources are probably not smart enough to do either.

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[rtw819]

As is the case with the microinverters in my grid tied 12 kW system. My question: do you think the AC output of the Lightning will be a “clean” enough signal for them to kick back on after i’ve flipped the transfer switch during an outage, with the truck feeding the non-grid end of that switch?

Though not from Ford directly, the information I found seems to have come through a Q&A session with a Ford employee quoted by different seemingly reliable sources. It seems the existing F150's "Pro Power Onboard" inverters are actually pure sine wave inverters -- I have to think the Lightning would use the same -- and if so, that is as "clean" of output you're going to get from an inverter.

"The inverter uses dedicated power electronics to smooth out the voltage ripples and produce a pure sine wave at the outlet."

Here's where I found the same "Pro Power" inverter info across multiple sites:

https://pickuptrucktalk.com/2020/10...-2021-ford-f-150-pro-power-onboard-explained/

https://spectrum.ieee.org/fords-2021-f150-pickup-is-a-mobile-power-station

https://www.truckcamperadventure.com/fords-new-pro-power-onboard-generator-is-an-rv-game-changer/

https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/threads/good-summary-of-pro-power-onboard.4458/

I too am looking forward to learning more about the Lightning's integration with existing solar implementations. No micro-inverters here (per-panel DC optimizers), and have a 13.44kWp grid-tied SolarEdge system with 7600+3800 SE Energy Hub inverters, an SE Backup Interface (integrated transfer switch for full home backup potential) along with an LG RESU10H battery.

From some images and videos floating around, the Ford Charge Station Pro appears to have a CCS-1 connector, which means it could get access to the vehicle's HV 400VDC battery output (depending on how Ford implemented the bi-directional power flow). The ~400V DC from the truck (if so employed) would align with on-the-wall inverter DC input and match up with attached solar battery backup solutions. Looking forward to seeing more formal specs on the interconnections. This is exciting stuff!

 

[Nick Gerteis]

Though not from Ford directly, the information I found seems to have come through a Q&A session with a Ford employee quoted by different seemingly reliable sources. It seems the existing F150's "Pro Power Onboard" inverters are actually pure sine wave inverters -- I have to think the Lightning would use the same -- and if so, that is as "clean" of output you're going to get from an inverter.



Here's where I found the same "Pro Power" inverter info across multiple sites:

https://pickuptrucktalk.com/2020/10...-2021-ford-f-150-pro-power-onboard-explained/

https://spectrum.ieee.org/fords-2021-f150-pickup-is-a-mobile-power-station

https://www.truckcamperadventure.com/fords-new-pro-power-onboard-generator-is-an-rv-game-changer/

https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/threads/good-summary-of-pro-power-onboard.4458/

I too am looking forward to learning more about the Lightning's integration with existing solar implementations. No micro-inverters here (per-panel DC optimizers), and have a 13.44kWp grid-tied SolarEdge system with 7600+3800 SE Energy Hub inverters, an SE Backup Interface (integrated transfer switch for full home backup potential) along with an LG RESU10H battery.

From some images and videos floating around, the Ford Charge Station Pro appears to have a CCS-1 connector, which means it could get access to the vehicle's HV 400VDC battery output (depending on how Ford implemented the bi-directional power flow). The ~400V DC from the truck (if so employed) would align with on-the-wall inverter DC input and match up with attached solar battery backup solutions. Looking forward to seeing more formal specs on the interconnections. This is exciting stuff!

Great, thank you for sharing! Exactly what I was hoping for.

 

[adoublee]

Based on what I have seen reported here, with the Pro Power Onboard implementation, and other info publicly available I will put my predictions, questions, and thoughts out there:

1. This feature will be awesome, I am super excited about it. The benefit of having it over the hybrid Pro Power Onboard 7.2kW, in addition to the additional power (40A/9.6kW to the house versus 80A/19.2kW the ER vehicles can charge at), is that the system can safely operate INSIDE the safety of a garage - which is also what will allow the back-up to be automated if desired. Elon Musk needs an attitude adjustment when it comes to this feature.

2. There seem to be several unknows about the DC to AC conversion associated with powering the home. Does the home powering inversion take place in the vehicle, or is HV battery accessed through DC pins of the CCS connector? Though there are some coincidences with 9.6kW available to power the home - the 40A/9.6kW values with the available 9.6kW pro power optional/standard on different trims and (2) 40 onboard charger speed in the ER battery option, I think they may indeed be utilizing an offboard inverter for the home power function. First and foremost, it is possible to have the intelligent home back-up with a Pro or XLT model that does not have the pro power onboard upgraded to 9.6kW from 2.4kW, which suggests the intelligent home back-up is not using the pro power onboard inverter. Second, I imagine enabling 2-way flow across the AC lines could work fine when operating the vehicle with the 80A Ford EVSE, but it is potentially problematic when charging from standard J1772 EVSE's that should never be permitted to pass power from vehicle to connection point. Third, doing it this way actually avoids the need install an actual bi-directional charger-rectifier/inverter. The vehicle is instead bi-directional at the battery.

3. Can solar be used to extend runtime of the battery when there is no grid connection? I certainly hope they find a way to make this available without a strong commitment to one system of solar hardware. That said - there are two conditions that need to be addressed and sadly I think one might be a problem. The first condition is where the grid-tie solar see's a stable grid from the intelligent home back-up system and and supplies less power than the home is using, simply causing the vehicle battery to discharge less. In the second condition, the usage of the home is less than the solar production. In this case the solar wants to push it's excess toward the battery - good if the EVSE is bidirectional and the battery can be charged. And to charge the vehicle battery properly, the EVSE would need to CONTROL the DC voltage to the battery versus just receiving whatever it gets when discharging from vehicle to home. The probably drives real extra hardware and cost which lead to my #4. My thought on best case scenario is the EVSE having AC voltage control that allows solar to be tapered as necessary to prevent flow into the vehicle. But I estimate no charging of the vehicle from solar without a grid connection.

4. I have seen the photo of an F150L connected to a wall device with a CCS plug and what appears to be an adjacent inverter. My hope is this was just done out of convenience before their own electronics were completed, and the 9.6kW intelligent home back-up inverter will be built into the "EVSE". I'm not sure that it is possible to fit this into the volume of the 80A EVSE device that has been seen, but it may be possible and would be interesting to see the size of the existing 7.2kW hybrid pro power onboard inverter built into the vehicle as a reference.

5. There is no doubt that a device that isolates the home from the grid will be required. Not only will it be required, but it seems manufacturers believe it has to be hard to defeat such that simple switch position signaling may be to defeatable to implement. Tesla and SolarEdge only recognize their own gateway/devices to see the grid is isolated and begin grid-forming, which gets them more hardware sales. HOPEFULLY Ford will allow other systems like the Span electrical panel to perform the isolation and enable the truck to begin powering the home. Either way, the EVSE circuit will probably still have to be run through an exterior switch that allows the utility to lock out the potential of the truck powering a dead utility line, for the utility to grant approval (especially if the battery will ever be capable of discharging into the grid on time of use rates and the like).

It would be great to get some very specific and clear answers from Ford on this.

 

[skaphan]

And to charge the vehicle battery properly, the EVSE would need to CONTROL the DC voltage to the battery versus just receiving whatever it gets when discharging from vehicle to home. The probably drives real extra hardware and cost which lead to my #4. My thought on best case scenario is the EVSE having AC voltage control that allows solar to be tapered as necessary to prevent flow into the vehicle. But I estimate no charging of the vehicle from solar without a grid connection.

I agree with most of your post, but I'm slightly dubious about this part. First off, my understanding is that the PRO charging station doesn't do level 3 (DC) charging, so if that is true there's no DC voltage TO the vehicle at all. Also, the charging station is itself powered by AC from the home, so if the home system is capable of off-grid operation and the charging station is able to be powered by solar panels (+ home battery if available) then it could also charge the vehicle when off grid. If it is true that an offboard inverter is necessary to use the 9.6 kW power from the truck, the DC from the truck would be an input just like the solar panels to that offboard inverter. My guess would be that when the truck is used as a power supply for the home, that it is a constant voltage supply and so the actual power would depend on the load presented (so the current would vary depending on load). If so, they wouldn't need extra electronics and a communication protocol to control it, because that's already part of the truck power electronics. But...rather than idle speculation it would be nice to hear from Ford on this. (Anybody home???)

 

[adoublee]

I agree with most of your post, but I'm slightly dubious about this part. First off, my understanding is that the PRO charging station doesn't do level 3 (DC) charging, so if that is true there's no DC voltage TO the vehicle at all.

The PRO's will still have CCS with level 3 (DC) charge capability, they just won't be supplied with extended range batteries or the 80A charger with the CCS (included DC pins) connector.

I to would like more from Ford on the concept sooner than later as well. Sunrun is an integrator not an equipment manufacturer and won't be producing any special products themselves to enable this function in my opinion. I may be wrong and the vehicle may have an onboard bidirectional DC/DC converter that allows an exterior inverter/rectifier to be a fixed DC voltage interface with the vehicle though. I think my main point is that having a bidirectional power vehicle could take on different meaning when considering use of both the AC and DC circuits of CCS in a home charging environment.

 

[skaphan]

The PRO's will still have CCS with level 3 (DC) charge capability, they just won't be supplied with extended range batteries or the 80A charger with the CCS (included DC pins) connector.

I to would like more from Ford on the concept sooner than later as well. Sunrun is an integrator not an equipment manufacturer and won't be producing any special products themselves to enable this function in my opinion. I may be wrong and the vehicle may have an onboard bidirectional DC/DC converter that allows an exterior inverter/rectifier to be a fixed DC voltage interface with the vehicle though. I think my main point is that having a bidirectional power vehicle could take on different meaning when considering use of both the AC and DC circuits of CCS in a home charging environment.

This article from Ford says their Pro charging station will do Level 2. I think they'd probably say if it did Level 3.

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...1/05/24/all-electric-f-150-lightning-pro.html

I'm guessing the vehicle itself can probably be charged with DC but apparently not with the Ford charging station. I read somewhere that it is harder on the battery to do that so maybe that's why??

 

[adoublee]

This article from Ford says their Pro charging station will do Level 2. I think they'd probably say if it did Level 3.

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...1/05/24/all-electric-f-150-lightning-pro.html

This is kinda the point. Level 2 (AC) is typically only done with J1772 connector which is a "half" of the CCS connector/inlet. There is no question the 80A charging station will be level 2. What is unique is that it appears that the level 2 will be delivered through the CCS physical format (not using the DC pins of the CCS connection). Doing this will ensure there is DC voltage access when power need to be take OFF of the truck. The CCS connector on the 80A home EVSE is the giveaway that they will use the DC for the home back-up.

I'm guessing the vehicle itself can probably be charged with DC but apparently not with the Ford charging station. I read somewhere that it is harder on the battery to do that so maybe that's why??

Yes, the vehicle will no doubt be able to be charged with Level 3 DC a fast charger sites. It is more taxing on batteries which is somewhat addressed by active heating/cooling, but is a whole other can of worms.

 

[skaphan]

This is kinda the point. Level 2 (AC) is typically only done with J1772 connector which is a "half" of the CCS connector/inlet. There is no question the 80A charging station will be level 2. What is unique is that it appears that the level 2 will be delivered through the CCS physical format (not using the DC pins of the CCS connection). Doing this will ensure there is DC voltage access when power need to be take OFF of the truck. The CCS connector on the 80A home EVSE is the giveaway that they will use the DC for the home back-up.

OK, I think we're pretty much on the same page. It hasn't helped that Ford used "Pro" to designate something about the vehicle but also a version of the charging station, which is what I thought you were talking about.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "What is unique is that it appears that the level 2 will be delivered through the CCS physical format (not using the DC pins of the CCS connection)."
What's unique about that? I would hope that nobody is using the AC pins for DC or vice versa, are they? I'm probably just not seeing what you are getting at.

 

[adoublee]

OK, I think we're pretty much on the same page. It hasn't helped that Ford used "Pro" to designate something about the vehicle but also a version of the charging station, which is what I thought you were talking about.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "What is unique is that it appears that the level 2 will be delivered through the CCS physical format (not using the DC pins of the CCS connection)."
What's unique about that? I would hope that nobody is using the AC pins for DC or vice versa, are they? I'm probably just not seeing what you are getting at.

If you have an EV right now and charge at home, you are using either a Tesla or J1772 connector to deliver AC power to the onboard charger in your vehicle today. It seems this will be the only case of AC-only power being delivered across a home CCS connector (No DC being supplied, just the same connector that offers AC+DC at fast charging locations). Note CCS is "combined charge system" which is combining AC and DC. Ford can use the physical connector and only utilize AC when charging, DC when drawing power to back up home, etc.

 

[metroshot]

If you have an EV right now and charge at home, you are using either a Tesla or J1772 connector to deliver AC power to the onboard charger in your vehicle today. It seems this will be the only case of AC-only power being delivered across a home CCS connector (No DC being supplied, just the same connector that offers AC+DC at fast charging locations). Note CCS is "combined charge system" which is combining AC and DC. Ford can use the physical connector and only utilize AC when charging, DC when drawing power to back up home, etc.

Yes, that makes sense!

I have a J1772 EVSE in the garage now so the CCS port will supply power back to the house via an inverter since CCS is DC power ?

What does the 80A Ford charger do differently than their 32 or 40A chargers ??
Is that 80A charger allow DC connection to an inverter for the house ?

 

[adoublee]

Yes, that makes sense!

I have a J1772 EVSE in the garage now so the CCS port will supply power back to the house via an inverter since CCS is DC power ?

What does the 80A Ford charger do differently than their 32 or 40A chargers ??
Is that 80A charger allow DC connection to an inverter for the house ?

CCS is both AC and DC power combined (AC in the J1772 format pins, DC below). If they actually provide the EVSE with home back-up with a CCS end, I think we can assume it is because they want to use the DC power for the home back-up. If that is the case, there would indeed need to be an inverter offboard the truck.

We don't know what the 80A EVSE is doing differently because we don't know what functions are baked into it and what power conversion/isolation tasks will need to be completed with separate equipment. It is possible that in addition to the 100A AC circuit connected for vehicle charging, a separate DC connection would exist for optional connection to a home back-up inverter that is not included in the package - potentially via an integrated contactor that only enables the DC output if a home isolation/transfer switch tells the device it has isolated the utility grid from the home. Or, if we are lucky maybe the inverter is built in and refeeds the 100A AC circuit when separate isolation switch indicates it is safe to do so.

Hopefully Ford will have integration options like using a Span electrical panel as the automatic isolation/transfer switch. This would allow automation and flexibility with extending the back-up duration, and all the day to day power monitoring benefits of a Span panel, all while reducing equipment and clutter.

If Ford ends up requiring more equipment than the isolation/transfer equipment that isolates the home from the grid, I suspect it will end up much much cheaper for the average homeowner to just wire in an outlet via breaker that is interlocked with the main breaker, and manually connect to the pro power onboard output in the bed of the truck (onboard inverter) for back-up contingency.

Still a lot of guessing at this point

 

[skaphan]

If Ford ends up requiring more equipment than the isolation/transfer equipment that isolates the home from the grid, I suspect it will end up much much cheaper for the average homeowner to just wire in an outlet via breaker that is interlocked with the main breaker, and manually connect to the pro power onboard output in the bed of the truck (onboard inverter) for back-up contingency.

Another consideration that supports this is that even if you used the whole 9.6 kW off the truck, assuming the high end guess for the battery capacity of 150 kWh, that would only be good for less than 16 hours of home backup, which is not much in an extended power outage. If you just used 2.4kW from an AC outlet on the truck, that 150kWh would give you 62.5 hours. For most homes, 2.4kW should be enough power for essentials.

With the solar install + battery we just did, we just used a manual interlock to enable a generator (or EV + inverter) to be connected for critical loads instead of the solar array, in case the solar+battery isn't sufficient.

 

[adoublee]

Another consideration that supports this is that even if you used the whole 9.6 kW off the truck, assuming the high end guess for the battery capacity of 150 kWh, that would only be good for less than 16 hours of home backup, which is not much in an extended power outage. If you just used 2.4kW from an AC outlet on the truck, that 150kWh would give you 62.5 hours. For most homes, 2.4kW should be enough power for essentials.

With the solar install + battery we just did, we just used a manual interlock to enable a generator (or EV + inverter) to be connected for critical loads instead of the solar array, in case the solar+battery isn't sufficient.

Yes, but note there is a 9.6kW truck AC outlet on the Platinum that is optional for most or all of the other configurations I believe. The upgrade output is 7.2kW on the hybrid so another potential benefit of the full EV.

Also, it can be beneficial to have a larger capacity that 2.4kW to start or run loads that don't run nonstop. So if your house had a 9.6kW peak load it does not mean you will run out in 16 hours. But yes, 2.4kW will do a lot for you over 0W!

 

[Nick Gerteis]

Yes, but note there is a 9.6kW truck AC outlet on the Platinum that is optional for most or all of the other configurations I believe. The upgrade output is 7.2kW on the hybrid so another potential benefit of the full EV.

Also, it can be beneficial to have a larger capacity that 2.4kW to start or run loads that don't run nonstop. So if your house had a 9.6kW peak load it does not mean you will run out in 16 hours. But yes, 2.4kW will do a lot for you over 0W!

From what I’ve seen so far it looks like the 240V outlet is 7.2 kW. With the 2.4 kW total from the various 120V outlets *added* to the 7.2, we get a grand total of 9.6. I’d much prefer a 240V/9.6 kW outlet as well, but it doesn’t look like that’s the plan.

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