Ford CEO Jim Farley's fascinating 'take' on taking on Chinese car companies...

[Grumpy2]

If they can't survive without subsidies a decade later then they'll never make it.

It shocked me the oil companies are currently receiving tax money funded subsidies, while USA is currently the biggest oil producer in the world ever.

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[saturnschildren]

davehu said:
If they can't survive without subsidies a decade later then they'll never make it.

It shocked me the oil companies are currently receiving tax money funded subsidies, while USA is currently the biggest oil producer in the world ever.

This ^^.

I always love the, "if they can't make it on their own they don't deserve to make it." comments. We subsidize all manner of very profitable businesses all the time: telco's, oil companies, mines, ad nauseam and yet when it comes to environmental issues suddenly it's all about the free market and subsidies are bad. I have an idea, let's take ALL the subsidies paid out to fossil fuel companies and give them ALL to solar companies, battery companies, EV manufacturers. Let's let the long established fossil fuel companies fight it out in the free market and support the new up and coming businesses.

 

[ctuan13]

While this may be all true and correct . . Please correct me if I'm wrong, aren't the Chinese EV's heavily subsidized in china, and I don't believe the workers are treated very well either.

And as someone with connections to those from and working directly in China, the news you read, rarely reflects the reality on the ground. The stories of Chinese EVs having abysmal quality control and battery safety are not just anti-china smears. They have innovated immensely, but often at the cost of dangerous battery failures and mistakes.

While I think an outright ban on Chinese-built vehicles isn't the right answer, I think to blindly flood the US market with these vehicles would also be incredibly naive.

 

[Scorpio3d]

The "Everything Electric" show on Youtube has an interesting interview with Ford CEO Jim Farley. Ford CEO Jim Farley's fascinating 'take' on taking on Chinese car companies...

The same interview is also available as a podcast on the "Fully Charged" podcast: "Can Lightning Strike Twice? With Jim Farley – The Man Behind The Best Selling Truck In 50 Years"

Farley surprised me. He seemed honest about the position Ford and all other automakers in the world are now in, compared to Chinese EV production. Eg.: he described at one point how he was driving a Chinese EV for a number of months, and he said: "I don't want to give it up". Etc.

I saw an excerpt of this on yahoo finance and just watched the whole video and was going to post it on here. Luckily, I searched first!
If you are interested in EV’s and Ford I feel that it is a much watch. I had many takeaways from this video comparing the lightning to the Model T being one of them. Farley doesn’t even have access to where the skunk works. Team is doing their work. There was a lot more, but it is worth a watch.IMHO

 

[RickKeen]

It shocked me the oil companies are currently receiving tax money funded subsidies, while USA is currently the biggest oil producer in the world ever.

Government subsidies are just looting us taxpayers when those businesses are making record profits. Tesla and Big Oil both no longer need government subsidies. Need to shut those down.

 

[Chado]

Taking away subsidies would include the $7500, you do that and the only USA EV manufacture left is Tesla

 

[Scorpio3d]

The "Everything Electric" show on Youtube has an interesting interview with Ford CEO Jim Farley. Ford CEO Jim Farley's fascinating 'take' on taking on Chinese car companies...

The same interview is also available as a podcast on the "Fully Charged" podcast: "Can Lightning Strike Twice? With Jim Farley – The Man Behind The Best Selling Truck In 50 Years"

Farley surprised me. He seemed honest about the position Ford and all other automakers in the world are now in, compared to Chinese EV production. Eg.: he described at one point how he was driving a Chinese EV for a number of months, and he said: "I don't want to give it up". Etc.

I saw an excerpt of this on yahoo finance and just watched the whole video and was going to post it on here. Luckily, I searched first!
If you are interested in EV’s and Ford I feel that it is a much watch. I had many takeaways from this video comparing the lightning to the Model T being one of them. Farley doesn’t even have access to where the skunk works. Team is doing their work. There was a lot more, but it is worth a watch.

Although we like to say "it's not our fault" and the Chinese are using unfair trade practices, the truth is that it's mostly our fault. Read this eye-opening article to see how we have failed to keep up (and not just with solar panel production).
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-opinion-how-US-lost-solar-power-race-to-China/

WOW!
Very long article, but also very enlightening!

 

[Scorpio3d]

Taking away subsidies would include the $7500, you do that and the only USA EV manufacture left is Tesla

Sounds like Ford is all in, however in the US it is going to take some time due to the politics of it all. I offer to take people for a quick ride and show them the power, smoothness and show off my Frunk and pro power on board. Not that it will change their minds, but at least get them to think. Once you drive one for a while, I don’t see how you could go back to ICE unless you are a daily road tripper, and even then these will get better as newer generations of EV‘s are created.

 

[Grumpy2]

The Chinese car Farley had flown to Michigan that he drove for 6 months and didn't want to return was said to be a Xiaomi SU7, with 500km range and recharge in 15 minutes. Cost $30k in China.

https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...he-perfect-compainion-to-the-lightning.22055/

 

[electricpig]

I think the bigger picture is being missed here. Yes it's about EVs and updating transportation, but it's more than that too. Subsidies for Vs and batteries now, are building a foundation for bigger things. Just like the early days of the computer. The ev's just provide an early marketable product to fund further development. What do we see in the Ukraine? Drones have changed the warfare like planes and tanks did before th. Drones relie on batteries tech, also various robots the military currently uses, and will use relie on batteries. But also mining seems to be in the process of switching to electrification as well. Much of aviation may follow. All this means we better be getting our asses in gear, or we will be at the mercy of the Chinese for critical components at a minimum. EVs provide a way to build the supply chains, the research chain, and the manufacturing chain. The critical future strategic chains.

 

[srspring551]

https://insideevs.com/news/738606/byd-ev-teardown-impresses-japan/

 

[PreservedSwine]

davehu said:
If they can't survive without subsidies a decade later then they'll never make it.



This ^^.

I always love the, "if they can't make it on their own they don't deserve to make it." comments. We subsidize all manner of very profitable businesses all the time: telco's, oil companies, mines, ad nauseam and yet when it comes to environmental issues suddenly it's all about the free market and subsidies are bad. I have an idea, let's take ALL the subsidies paid out to fossil fuel companies and give them ALL to solar companies, battery companies, EV manufacturers. Let's let the long established fossil fuel companies fight it out in the free market and support the new up and coming businesses.

There a huge difference in ev subsidies and oil and gas subsidies.
In most Oil subsidies are a reduction in arbitrary taxes or fees. Instead of amalugated acme oil and gas paying 20 million in fees, rights, and taxes, they pay 15 million.
EV subsidies are being used as a tool for wealth redistribution-going directly from taxpayers to be customers of ev companies. This is a huge distinction. Not to mention the forced purchase “carbon credits” which is essentially a sleazy shakedown and does nothing to reduce a carbon footprint.


The takeaway I get from the article, Chinese EV’s are well built, reliable, and are incorporating cutting edge technologies. Farley acknowledging this is surprising in such a public way.

 

[chl]

While this may be all true and correct . . Please correct me if I'm wrong, aren't the Chinese EV's heavily subsidized in china, and I don't believe the workers are treated very well either.

The autoworker salary issue has been greatly exaggerated:

BYD
The average BYD salary ranges from approximately $44,779 per year (estimate) for a Warehouse Specialist to $215,298 per year (estimate) for a Vice President, Executive Management.

The average BYD hourly pay ranges from approximately $19 per hour (estimate) for an Assembly Line Worker to $64 per hour (estimate) for a Consulting Services Engineer, Asia Pacific.

BYD employees rate the overall compensation and benefits package 3.1/5 stars.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/BYD-China-Salaries-EI_IE41020.0,3_IL.4,9_IN48.htm

Yes the automakers are subsidized. But you realize the US Govt has bailed out automakers several times, and gives EV tax credits. Business can deduct in their tax returns the cost of vehicles in their fleets.

Of course gas and oil are heavily subsidized in many ways as well in the tax code.

No country has a completely liassez faire economic policy - we all subsidize business in one way or another to a greater or lesser extent...because we all need jobs and money to spend on stuff, food rent etc.

 

[chl]

There a huge difference in ev subsidies and oil and gas subsidies.
In most Oil subsidies are a reduction in arbitrary taxes or fees. Instead of amalugated acme oil and gas paying 20 million in fees, rights, and taxes, they pay 15 million.
EV subsidies are being used as a tool for wealth redistribution-going directly from taxpayers to be customers of ev companies. This is a huge distinction. Not to mention the forced purchase “carbon credits” which is essentially a sleazy shakedown and does nothing to reduce a carbon footprint.


The takeaway I get from the article, Chinese EV’s are well built, reliable, and are incorporating cutting edge technologies. Farley acknowledging this is surprising in such a public way.

Ever heard of the oil depletion allowance?

The allowance encouraged people who were taxed at a high marginal rate to invest in, perhaps risky, oil ventures. If the venture failed, then the costs would effectively reduce income, so the effective loss at a 90% marginal rate would only be 10% of the actual investment. Conversely if the venture was successful, an amount up to initial investment (under cost depletion, see below) would be tax free. Under the percentage depletion method the amount could potentially be even greater.

The oil depletion allowance has been a subject of interest because one method (percentage depletion) of claiming the allowance makes it possible to write off more than the whole capital cost of the asset.

Billionaire welfare.

 

[Scorpio3d]

From Investopedia:

KEY TAKEAWAYS
Several major tax benefits are available for oil and gas companies and investors that are found nowhere else in the tax code.
Tangible costs, which pertain to the actual direct cost of the drilling equipment are 100% deductible but must be depreciated over seven years.
1
Intangible drilling costs generally constitute 65-80% of the total cost of drilling a well and are100% deductible in the year incurred.
2
Lease operating costs and all administrative, legal, and accounting expenses can also be deducted over the life of the lease
The oil depletion allowance has been a subject of interest because one method (percentage depletion) of claiming the allowance makes it possible to write off more than the whole capital cost of the asset.

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