Lower Amp charging healthier for battery?

[luebri]

To me it is simply a question of how much kWH did I pay for vs how much the truck received. If one Amp setting is better that may effect my charge rate settings.

I was able to test at 120v with a AmpRoad Adjust EVSE, but I dont have a 50amp plug to allow for testing up to 40A.

Here was that result.

Sponsored

 

[RickLightning]

Tom Moloughney, on his State of Charge YouTube channel, has an interview with Darren Palmer, VP of the electric vehicles division at Ford. Palmer says that Ford didn't want to end up paying for replacement batteries under warranty. Their warranty of 8 years or 100K miles, whichever comes first, while still having at least 70% SOC capacity left in the battery, is designed to be met if the user charges EVERY DAY to 100% with a level 2 charger. IIRC, Palmer says in the interview if you stay within the 20% to 80% SOC, you'll do far, far better than that. So, reducing the rate of charge to something less than 80 amps with the FCSP will just be more icing on the cake if you charge almost entirely at home.

(warranty segment starts at about 28:18 into the video)

What I would like to know about charging at home is what manual options do you have to set battery temperature control while parked and plugged in. And when it's 110 deg F outside my garage and maybe 90 to 95 deg inside my garage at the peak of summer heat, if automated battery cooling kicks in, how much is effectively running an AC compressor (the one on my truck) going to further roast the truck in my garage?! Our HOA has strict rules about NO window air conditioners. Still, they seem to be lax about installing mini splits, so that might be one expensive possibility to keep the truck battery comfy in the garage while still helping to pillage the environment despite the would-be "greenness" of the truck. We have a bad roof design and too many trees all over for solar panels. One of our neighbors actually trimmed the Heck out of his live oaks to install a ton of solar panels at ground level in his backyard!

You have no manual options. The truck will cool the battery if it needs to. Cooling the garage (or heating a garage) is a needless waste of energy.

So my charging via the 110 outlet in my garage should be amazing. ( actually doing this, my commute is short )

No, it's basically near useless, adding 1.1kW per hour.

This is a timely thread. I've been researching what the best amperage is to charge. I currently have a 48amp/40amp through my 14-50. I've been setting it for 32amps. My brother has owned his Tesla for a year and charges I think around 24 amps. I can easily charge at 24 amps and make just start doing that.

Slightly off topic. I have a seperate 3rd garage where I park half the time, but my level 2 charger isn't in there (it is in the main garage). During the winter, would I gain anything, by at least plugging in my mobile charger 110v on the truck? Would it at least help precondition? I don't need it to add range on those nights when I park in there. Just trying to find out if there is any benefit or should I not worry about it being unplugged overnight?

You cannot precondition the battery with 120v. If the battery wants to warm itself on bitterly cold nights, that 1.1kW will help a little, assuming it kicks into battery warming mode knowing how little juice there is (haven't tested it).

On the Mach-E forum, they discussed charging at different amperage to lose less power from wall to car. I did a hypothetical on the "savings":

Let's do the math. Your 11% loss (at 32amps) charging the car from 20 to 90% on a ER, with 15 cents per kWh, as compared to a 15% loss (higher amps).

91 x 70% = 63.7kW / .89 = 71.6kW x 15 cents = $10.74
91 x 70% = 63.7kW / .85 = 74.9kW x 15 cents = $11.24

Net POSSIBLE savings = 50 cents

If you did this once a week, you'd save $26 a year. I have mine set on 32amps, rarely do I raise it to 48amps.

 

[metroshot]

L2 charging is super safe for the batteries.

L3 / DCFC is detrimental due to the rapid heating of the cells.

That's why when I fast charge I stop at 85-90%.

At home, L2 48A is fine to get to 100%.

 

[Jim Lewis]

Cooling the garage (or heating a garage) is a needless waste of energy.

When the truck heats or cools its main battery, is the energy derived from the battery? If so, then by using the truck battery to do this, you're adding extra lifetime cycles to the battery to heat or cool the battery in your garage. Although it might not be very much energy instantaneously, pennies make dollars if you're doing it 24x7 during the winter or summer months. If the truck compressor/heater runs directly off wall juice derived from the charging cable, then you're sparing the battery cycles. Otherwise, you're potentially committing the "mortal sin" of discharging a Li-ion battery at the same time you're charging it. Since that's not supposed to be desirable for cell phones, etc., I presume it's also less desirable for EVs.

Note, too, that Ford in the F-150 Lightning manual specifically recommends sheltering the EV in a garage or shaded area, presumably to spare the battery from the heat (and extra cycling for the battery to heat or cool itself?).

There's also basic thermodynamics involved. I agree in the winter, other than battery wear and tear, no problema heating the truck battery as any excess heat from the battery is consumed by the colder surrounding environment.

However, in the summer, when it might be in excess of 110 deg F outside and >95 deg in the garage, you have the potential for a positive feedback cycle. The battery cooling is generating more heat in the garage, which calls for the need for more battery cooling, which leads to more heat in the garage. And you're trying to stay cooler than the 110 deg outdoor temperature. There is nowhere for the heat added to the interior of the garage to go. With a portable AC unit vented to the garage attic space, one is betting that the cooling BTU added to the garage will exceed the heating BTU in any air brought into the garage to replace the hot portable AC compressor exhaust air vented to the attic space.

In effect, you're saying that the truck battery is going to survive just as well if kept in the mid-90s in garage space by its own cooling vs. being kept at 85 deg F in the garage all summer by an independent portable AC unit. I agree a portable AC unit is hardly saving the environment but since we keep our house at 85 deg F 18 hours a day and at 81 deg F, 6 hours a day during the Texas summer and use 3x less electricity than our non-energy conscious neighbors do, according to our public utility statistics, we can afford to waste a little energy cooling our garage instead of our whole 3400 sq. ft. house. Same for winter heating. We keep our whole house at 60 deg F during the winter and use electric space heaters in specific spots like the master bath (our kids are gone and middle-aged now).

BTW, I read somewhere that the current cost of replacing a Lightning extended range battery is ~$36K. Perhaps just getting a new vehicle for another $100K is in everyone's plans?

 

[luebri]

No, it's basically near useless, adding 1.1kW per hour.

What is your definition of useless? @256fail Question was regarding benefit of 110v in winter. In my study I showed an overnight warming from 42F to 54.5F on 120v. From my standpoint this is not "useless". A 54.5F battery vs a 42F will perform more efficiently and thus is a benefit.

It's all math. It all matters. It all adds up

91 x 70% = 63.7kW / .89 = 71.6kW x 15 cents = $10.74
91 x 70% = 63.7kW / .85 = 74.9kW x 15 cents = $11.24

Net POSSIBLE savings = 50 cents

If you did this once a week, you'd save $26 a year. I have mine set on 32amps, rarely do I raise it to 48amps.

a) You only charge once a week?
b) We are not talking about a 91 kWh Mach E. The majority of Lightnings sold are ER 131 kWh.
c) Regardless, neither of that matters in the equation. Miles driven and the mi/kWh is what matters in the scenario.

The proper way to do the calculation... "Let's do the (better) math"

In this scenario... it would be ~$350 savings a year!
It's all math. It all matters. It all adds up

Thank you for trying to share some of the information from the Mach E forum. We appreciate the help. That said... I find it very curious that you seem to quickly disregard & discourage anyone doing any effort to understand what the truck is or is not doing because they do not have a deep understanding of the ongoings of the Mach E forum.

 

[RickLightning]

Your math is not correct. Loss is calculated wrong, totals are wrong, and differential is wrong.

I assumed total usage per week of 70% of the battery, i.e. 90% down to 20%. In the Lightning, that would be 91.7kWh. At 1.8 miles per kW, that's 165 miles, because of the much lower efficiency than the Mach-E.

Let's use your 300 miles in a week. 166.67 with a 15% loss is 196kW from the wall is 166.67/.85 or 196kW. 11% loss is 187. Difference of 9kW a week or $1.35, or $70.20 a year. If someone had the higher loss, that's the cost.

I haven’t read your pages of writeups in detail. However, prior testing showed no battery preconditioning with 120v in a Mach-E, because the heater pulls way too much power. Pulling 1.44kW per hour for 12 hours would be $2.16. Doing that just to preheat the battery and gain 12 degrees by charging is pretty expensive on a 5 day a week basis and over a year.

There was a change to the software in both vehicles recently that put DC charger preconditioning in, starting at 30km from a DC charger that is set as a destination. It is possible that this change also changed the previously analyzed preheating results.

Doing 300 miles a week and using 196kW means you need 178 hours of charging at 120v, which shows the impracticality of 120v with the truck.

With the government providing a tax credit of 30% of EV charger installation and purchase, it makes sense for any Lightning owner to put in at least 48amp charging on a 60amp circuit, if not higher. The benefits of preconditoning in the dead of winter with an adequate power supply, if the range is needed, are great.

 

[RickLightning]

When the truck heats or cools its main battery, is the energy derived from the battery? If so, then by using the truck battery to do this, you're adding extra lifetime cycles to the battery to heat or cool the battery in your garage. Although it might not be very much energy instantaneously, pennies make dollars if you're doing it 24x7 during the winter or summer months. If the truck compressor/heater runs directly off wall juice derived from the charging cable, then you're sparing the battery cycles. Otherwise, you're potentially committing the "mortal sin" of discharging a Li-ion battery at the same time you're charging it. Since that's not supposed to be desirable for cell phones, etc., I presume it's also less desirable for EVs.

Note, too, that Ford in the F-150 Lightning manual specifically recommends sheltering the EV in a garage or shaded area, presumably to spare the battery from the heat (and extra cycling for the battery to heat or cool itself?).

There's also basic thermodynamics involved. I agree in the winter, other than battery wear and tear, no problema heating the truck battery as any excess heat from the battery is consumed by the colder surrounding environment.

However, in the summer, when it might be in excess of 110 deg F outside and >95 deg in the garage, you have the potential for a positive feedback cycle. The battery cooling is generating more heat in the garage, which calls for the need for more battery cooling, which leads to more heat in the garage. And you're trying to stay cooler than the 110 deg outdoor temperature. There is nowhere for the heat added to the interior of the garage to go. With a portable AC unit vented to the garage attic space, one is betting that the cooling BTU added to the garage will exceed the heating BTU in any air brought into the garage to replace the hot portable AC compressor exhaust air vented to the attic space.

In effect, you're saying that the truck battery is going to survive just as well if kept in the mid-90s in garage space by its own cooling vs. being kept at 85 deg F in the garage all summer by an independent portable AC unit. I agree a portable AC unit is hardly saving the environment but since we keep our house at 85 deg F 18 hours a day and at 81 deg F, 6 hours a day during the Texas summer and use 3x less electricity than our non-energy conscious neighbors do, according to our public utility statistics, we can afford to waste a little energy cooling our garage instead of our whole 3400 sq. ft. house. Same for winter heating. We keep our whole house at 60 deg F during the winter and use electric space heaters in specific spots like the master bath (our kids are gone and middle-aged now).

BTW, I read somewhere that the current cost of replacing a Lightning extended range battery is ~$36K. Perhaps just getting a new vehicle for another $100K is in everyone's plans?

If you keep the truck plugged in, it will pull juice to warm, or cool, the battery as it needs to in excess temperatures. On a very cold night, it may take a few 15 minute sips and use a few kilowatts. You will use considerably more energy warming or cooling the garage trying to keep the battery warm or cool. It will be fine left simply plugged in.

It is warranted for 8 years / 100,000 miles to be at least 70% capacity. Ford has said that number would be exceeded if you charged every day to 100%, in other words prudent care will be much, much better.

It's your energy, use it how you wish.

Don't know how you tolerate 85 in the summer and 60 in the winter. Our house is 71 in the winter evening, 70 during the day. Sleep at 63. Summer is 73. Once it gets to 77 I wilt.

 

[luebri]

Let's use your 300 miles in a week. 166.67 with a 15% loss is 196kW from the wall is 166.67/.85 or 196kW. 11% loss is 187. Difference of 9kW a week or $1.35, or $70.20 a year. If someone had the higher loss, that's the cost.

Yep, my excel was put together in 2 minute at work on lunch. Sloppy. Thanks for recognizing and correcting, I sincerely appreciate that.

However my point was more that the size of battery is not relative. The amount of miles driven and efficiency of the vehicle is.

And the main point is $70 is real money, and could change someones decision if the rate of charge made a difference on efficiency.

I haven’t read your pages of writeups in detail. However, prior testing showed no battery preconditioning with 120v in a Mach-E, because the heater pulls way too much power. Pulling 1.44kW per hour for 12 hours would be $2.16. Doing that just to preheat the battery and gain 12 degrees by charging is pretty expensive on a 5 day a week basis and over a year.

There was a change to the software in both vehicles recently that put DC charger preconditioning in, starting at 30km from a DC charger that is set as a destination. It is possible that this change also changed the previously analyzed preheating results.

Doing 300 miles a week and using 196kW means you need 178 hours of charging at 120v, which shows the impracticality of 120v with the truck.

With the government providing a tax credit of 30% of EV charger installation and purchase, it makes sense for any Lightning owner to put in at least 48amp charging on a 60amp circuit, if not higher. The benefits of preconditoning in the dead of winter with an adequate power supply, if the range is needed, are great.

My argument has nothing to do with 240v vs 120v. Yes 120v is inadequate for 95% use cases of charging the lightning. My point was you have stated several times that 120v charging does not warm the battery and does not serve a benefit. You are 100% wrong unless you have data to show me otherwise.

My very brief write up on 120v stated the following.

- 15 amp connecting using AMPRoad EVSE set to 16 AMP
- Charging at 11.2 amps (per Lightning 120v limitations)
- Plugged in at 9:38 PM (65% SOC, 71.65 kWh)
- Start Temp: HVB Min 41 F/ HVB Max 42.8
- Unplugged at 7:07 AM (12.55kWh used) (70.5% SOC, 82.63kWH)
- Temp: HVB Min 53.6 F/ HVB Max 55.4
- Preconditioning was set occur at 6:55
- Ambient Garage temp was 43 F the whole time.
- Summary added ~12.5 F in 10h 30m. 11 kwh added

My conclusion: Even 120v charging is a temperature benefit. Since Only 1.5kWh was "lost" between what the charger used and what the battery gained I would conclude that 120v was enough to warm the battery a decent amount ~12.5F.

Could there be more loss at colder temps that then makes 120v less practical? Maybe I dont know that. I'd love for less conjecture on the matter and more data.

All this said... Since you seem to have all the answers please do us all a solid and answer these questions for me and others that have been wondering similar things about their trucks.

1) At what low temp does the truck warm the battery for protection when unplugged.

2) At what high temp does the truck cool the battery for protection when unplugged.

3) At what low temp does the truck warm the battery for protection when plugged in. Does a charging schedule affect this trigger point or not?

4) At what high temp does the truck warm the battery for protection when plugged in. Does a charging schedule affect this trigger point or not?

 

[Jim Lewis]

You will use considerably more energy warming or cooling the garage trying to keep the battery warm or cool. It will be fine left simply plugged in.

The cost of a portable AC unit, although less efficient than a window AC (not allowed by our HOA rules), is really not that bad.

Since I'm in southern Texas, the need to warm the battery in winter is almost non-existent. However, in summer, as I pointed out and to which you haven't replied, using the truck battery to cool itself in a closed environment without exhausting the heat, warms the garage overall, and can be extremely counterproductive since heat will NOT be leaving the garage but coming in from the outside environment as well as being generated by the truck attempting to cool its battery. The portable AC, by exhausting waste heat, solves that problem.

Just taking as an example a 14,000 BTU Frigidaire device, it consumes 1.38 kWh when cooling (and I'm positing the worst possible case, that the portable AC unit is running constantly). Electricity in San Antonio is about 9.24 cents per kWh. That's 12.75 cents per hour to run the portable AC unit CONSTANTLY. It's not going to have to run 24x7. Say it runs 12 hrs/day. That's $1.53 per day or per 30-day month, ~$46/mo, or if there are 5 cooling months a year, roughly $230/year. But I've grossly exaggerated since the machine probably won't need to run 12 straight hours, and not all cooling months are as hot as July and August in San Antonio. Some of our neighbors are spending $500/mo or more to cool ~3400 or so sq. ft. homes. We're spending $150 to $200 per month because of our thermostat settings. So an extra $46/mo to preserve a $36K truck battery in the garage in the heat of Texas summer is not a big deal to us - and potentially easier all on the other "stuff" we store in the garage.

The other thing that might ease the need to cool the truck battery is early morning summer temperatures in San Antonio are usually under 80 deg F, often in the mid to low 70s. So, I'm planning to have the garage door open in the early morning hours to let the truck cool down from the heat captured in the insulated garage from the hottest part of the previous day. Then, I'll close up the garage for the day in mid-morning and see how well the 3 1/4 ton mass of the truck itself serves as a big "ice" block to keep the garage cool. I'll try to do most errands, etc., in the morning hours so I'm not parking in Walmart parking lots, etc., that are 135 deg F! (does the truck attempt to cool its battery if not plugged in to a charger?). So, with that sort of scheme during the hottest months of the summer, a portable AC unit in the garage should not have to work especially hard because most days it won't be struggling to cool down a blazing hot truck that spent an hour or two in some red hot asphalt parking lot or stuck in rush hour traffic during the hottest part of the afternoon.

Edit_Update: I should have looked at my electric bill rather than searching the web for cost per kWh in San Antonio. With all the "fuel adjustments," etc., I'm actually paying 14.6 cents per kWh for Jan. 2023, 439 kWh used, $63.88 total electric bill. So, that would make the cost per hour of the 14,000 BTU portable AC unit 20.1 cents, per 12 hrs per day use, $2.41, per 30-day month use, $72.44, and per 5-cooling-months, ~$362, assuming the unit is running constantly during each 12 hours of use per day over the ~5 cooling months in San Antonio, TX.

 

[Lightning Rod]

Until I get my FCSP, I will have to use the 100V route to charge but my garage 110 outlet is a GFI. Did I read somewhere that you can't use the Ford Mobile Charger 110V with a GFCI 110V outlet or did I read wrong?

Thanks.

 

[Firestop]

Until I get my FCSP, I will have to use the 100V route to charge but my garage 110 outlet is a GFI. Did I read somewhere that you can't use the Ford Mobile Charger 110V with a GFCI 110V outlet or did I read wrong?

Thanks.

All of my garage 120V outlets are GFIC-protected and worked flawlessly with my FMC for 3 weeks 2hile I was waiting to have my FCSP inst@lled.…same result when using an 120V GFIC-protected outlet when visiting my daughter out-of-state………

 

[Amps]

the data graphs in FordPass are hot garbage

For me, they don't exist. I thought I had looked everywhere in FordPass for more charging information, including beyond the inexplicable decision somebody somewhere made to remove the kWh added during the charge from the charging log when you unplug.

Where can I find the data graphs?

 

[luebri]

For me, they don't exist. I thought I had looked everywhere in FordPass for more charging information, including beyond the inexplicable decision somebody somewhere made to remove the kWh added during the charge from the charging log when you unplug.

Where can I find the data graphs?

The graphs are available if you are using Ford Charge Station Pro. Account > Charge Station > Insights.

Here is an example of why I think the hourly graphs are done poorly. It shows my 26.306 kWh charge as happening in the 6 AM hour. Which is the hour it finished but the charge time started at 5 AM as you can see from whole home power monitor.

 

[Amps]

The graphs are available if you are using Ford Charge Station Pro

Thanks, mine is still in the box.

The FCSP graph looks like more software design from someone who doesn't understand information useful to an EV owner.

 

[TaxmanHog]

Thanks, mine is still in the box.

The FCSP graph looks like more software design from someone who doesn't understand information useful to an EV owner.

That may be a painful process to configure once your FCSP is installed.

I think Fords intent was to give a consumption total from the time we plug in to the time we unplug, rather than time incremented values like we can see in third party energy monitoring devices.

This mornings charge.
value for the day so far

The last hourly increment during the tail off of this morning's session that includes remote start and no pre conditioning.

What fordpass reported for this event, charging started at 5am finished at 6:03. then I remote started later. 6:32 to 6:47

Emporia Vue2 chart

FP charge log entry
I would like them to retain the KWH value on this report, as seen in the active/pending session view while the CCS1 cable is still connected.