Thoughts on the Charge Station Pro...

[PiMatrix]

I posted an update in the other thread... with the cover off and a fan blowing on the components, it no longer stops charging.

The contactors do produce heat, but I think the issue is trapped convection inside the case. With the cover removed and a fan blowing on components, the two contactors have equivalent readings.

Temp of AC input terminals was about 133 degrees.

Very interesting. I suspected the fan would do the trick but I do think there is still an issue that goes beyond an airtight housing, in this case, with the brown wire contactor that runs back to the lightning. The AC current on the blue and brown wires should be identical and if the contact resistance were the same the temperatures should also be identical. They are nearly 20 F different and the only difference between the two wires seems to be maybe the contact resistance of those two charge cable wires. Is the contact resistance of that wire causing local heating. BTW, I know you checked the torque but that was the same wire I found under-torqued. Now the problem is that once a contact has been extremely overheated sometimes one can not just tighten it down if it has become oxidized. I don't think this is the case for your FCSP as you just have begun to use it. I'm wondering if you were to put some GB Ox-Gard whether this would drop the temperature substantially. Besides no-ox it has zinc for better thermal conductivity.

Is the lug nut terminal aluminum or alloy, it should be alloy or copper with a coating. There could also be some self heating back from the cable to the lightning which is why I asked earlier if that was warm or hot. The gauge is a lot lower than the cable from the panel to the charger. #3 vs #6 and it is 25 ft.

Things do seem to be pointing to an issue with that splice between the house current and charge cable. Everyone is seeing the same type of issue but at different times of charging. It's pointing to a quality issue in that lug or contactor contact to the charger cable. Is there a relay switch in there between the two or is it a electronic thyristor switch? Seems like the FCSP would have ability to disconnect the voltage but it could be a mechanic relay or electronic. Do you hear a click when it starts charging.

I could see a cover plate with an integrated fan by Ford to fix this but the question is why was this overtemp not caught in design. Is it an undersized contactor or lug design that was substituted during manufacturing?

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[FlasherZ]

They are nearly 20 F different and the only difference between the two wires seems to be maybe the contact resistance of those two charge cable wires. Is the contact resistance of that wire causing local heating.

My observation is that it's likely convection. I torqued those connectors to the same value, and there is no sign of oxidization. I disconnected the two wires and they exhibit the same resistance through the cable.

I am chalking it up to convection, the heat from the lower contactor is rising and directly heating the brown terminal which then flows into the contactor through the aluminum coupling.

As I noted, take the cover off and blow a fan on all components and the temperature equalizes on both contactors & terminals.

 

[PiMatrix]

OK, but there is still quite a difference in temp between the blue and brown wires with the cover off. I would expect conductive heating to dominate over convective heating, ie. the brown to upper supply contactor both sit at 163F while the blue to lower contactor sit at average 145F. You can flip the charger upside down to test that theory . But, yes, you may be right...

Do you need the fan running to keep the FCSP from shutting down or do you think just the open convective cooling is enough? With a closed chassis and no place for heat to go the temp will just keep going up.

Could there be ventilation holes drilled for those that do not need the NEMA rating which would provide enough cooling? Since it's highly unlikely for this to make it out of design into manufacturing with a thermal issue I vote for an undersized contactor component or lug terminal quality issue, or even torque in some units (mine) that was not caught. THere is no way those contactors should be up at 163F. After all, they are passive components. If the gauge were same and contactor/lug robust it should not be creating a self-heating issue. It's simply E= Power x time = I*I*R*time with no place for that energy to go. Unless removed by ventilation eventually it causes the temperature to rise and thermistor to say stop the charge, we have a error, until it cools down again. Fords firmware fix likely throttles the current down when the thermistor gets close to shutdown preventing the shutdown from occurring. How frequent this occurs clearly will depend upon the location of charger (in sun or shade), indoor or outdoor, and the climate.

Hopefully it's just a new cover with ventilation holes in top and bottom for a convective heat pipe cooling. Or we all have drills!

If there is ANYONE out there not having this issue at all? If so then it's likely just a high resistance contact or manufacturing tolerance issue and some units need replaced or make it a <80A charger

 

[FlasherZ]

I can say with authority on my unit that it's not a wire-terminal resistance/contact issue on my unit. I've checked everything up and down the line. If it were a wire-terminal resistance/contact issue, then the fan blown on the components would simply not equalize the temperatures - the brown terminal would always be higher.

Just for the sake of full testing, I swapped the blue and brown wires and retorqued, with the same results (top contactor got hotter than the bottom until I applied the fan).

Contactors have two elements associated with them which can generate heat - the magnet coils produce heat, and the current passing across the contacts generates heat. They're not entirely passive.

Tesla's HPWC is a sealed unit as well... but Tesla seems to use beefier contactors that generate less heat.

 

[rdr854]

So here is a question . . . Is it safe to use or do I need to find a different home charging solution? I don’t want to burn down my house, but I also don’t want to spend unnecessary money on another 80 amp charger.

 

[Ken]

Is there an available alternative that can charge at 80 amps for those of us with pending installs if we want to cancel? My build week is tomorrow

 

[PiMatrix]

I can say with authority on my unit that it's not a wire-terminal resistance/contact issue on my unit. I've checked everything up and down the line. If it were a wire-terminal resistance/contact issue, then the fan blown on the components would simply not equalize the temperatures - the brown terminal would always be higher.

Just for the sake of full testing, I swapped the blue and brown wires and retorqued, with the same results (top contactor got hotter than the bottom until I applied the fan).

Contactors have two elements associated with them which can generate heat - the magnet coils produce heat, and the current passing across the contacts generates heat. They're not entirely passive.

Tesla's HPWC is a sealed unit as well... but Tesla seems to use beefier contactors that generate less heat.

Great detective work. I took a look at the 12V contactor relays pictured below which are rated up to 80A so not too much overdesign there. Max operating temperature is 185F. They both create 12 watts excess heat from each contactor. Considering the wire attached to it is sitting at 163 F where it's being convective cooled you have to wonder if it could be close to the temp spec internal to relay. It is, however, designed for EV charging.

So bottom line I think is the conclusion your data shows. This is a marginal thermal design WITH the cover sealed at 80A. I leave out the possibility that there is some component issue contributing to the extra heat due to I2R heating of the terminal blocks, or if installation wiring is undersized, or the unit is in a warmer (outside or climate) environment. I find it hard to believe the designers would not have tested in all extreme conditions. This kind of stuff does not go into production without major stress testing so someone needs to see if manufacturing did a last minute switcheroo.

It is possible some passive OR active cooling might be useful, e.g. a heat sink or set of chimney effect vent holes. It's also possible a slight max de-rating may be enough. When I get my car, if Ford doesn't keep removing more options, I'll do some experiments to see. Thank you FlasherZ for going to all the work to get more data on this!

Someone just asked if they are safe to use. I think Ford/Siemens does have a failsafe temperature sensor to make sure the unit is not overheating. As long as the system is interlocked with that safety monitor the unit should stay below safe limits. If your worried I suppose dropping down one notch to 64 amps would be fine but disappointing. Resistive heat generated from the charging current should go as square of current, so a change to 64 from 80 Amps would be a reduction of roughly 36% in rate of heat generated. If you see dropouts there I'd certainly get a replacement or have your electrician check the lugs on either side of the relays below.

 

[Maquis]

So here is a question . . . Is it safe to use or do I need to find a different home charging solution? I don’t want to burn down my house, but I also don’t want to spend unnecessary money on another 80 amp charger.

Evidence so far indicates that it shuts itself down before initiating an incendiary event.

Does your use case necessitate 80A charging?

 

[FlasherZ]

So here is a question . . . Is it safe to use or do I need to find a different home charging solution? I don’t want to burn down my house, but I also don’t want to spend unnecessary money on another 80 amp charger.

I do not believe that it is unsafe. It has passed UL testing which usually leaves a lot of headroom.

It sounds like Ford may push the temperature shutdown threshold up (it's really the only thing they can do at this point). And in my opinion, it'll still be safe. I think that's what surprises me most - it's like they never tested the unit for non-climate-controlled garages in Phoenix, much less cooler places.

I don't intend to panic anyone with my posts here - I believe the FCSP is a cheaply-made EVSE with a lot of design flaws, but I do believe it to be safe.

Is there an available alternative that can charge at 80 amps for those of us with pending installs if we want to cancel? My build week is tomorrow

Ford has already said that they would be issuing a fix, and 80A EVSE equipment is not inexpensive. If you're going with the higher trims, you get the FCSP included, so you may as well use it.

If you're choosing to buy the FCSP from Ford for a lower trim level, then I guess the only question you'll have to answer is whether you want to install the home integration system for whole-house backup. Ford's HIS requires you use the FCSP to signal need for backup power to the truck, and you'll have to use it (although I'm sure down the road there are probably going to be more solutions available). There are plenty of options available out there. I'm familiar with the good, old standby Clipper Creek (which is several thousand $$) and I've used my Tesla gen 2 wall connector with a Teslatap to charge my truck. Both reach the full 80A.

 

[Maquis]

It sounds like Ford may push the temperature shutdown threshold up (it's really the only thing they can do at this point).

They could also change the software to throttle the output (with or without notification) when the temperature rises, instead of throwing a hard fault. This is what has been happening to the Mobile Charger - reduced output with an amber light, but no FordPass notification about the reduction.

Your solution is probably more likely, but maybe not the only possibility.

 

[FlasherZ]

They could also change the software to throttle the output (with or without notification) when the temperature rises, instead of throwing a hard fault. This is what has been happening to the Mobile Charger - reduced output with an amber light, but no FordPass notification about the reduction.

The cynic in me says they already throttle the output...

The FCSP is advertising less than 80A to the truck (like the mobile connector only seems to advertise 30A instead of 32A), and I've only observed the truck pulling 76-78. I know it's not the truck because on the Tesla HPWC + Teslatap, it's drawing a full 80.

But I get what you're saying - rather than shutting down for 5 minutes, they could just adjust downwards due to heat. The HPWC will do this when stressed as well.

But with that said, I point to others who are seeing the charging stop even with ambient temps of 70-80 degF - I would call it a product failure if "80A-ish" charging gets throttled with 70-80 degF ambients.

 

[beatle]

Is there an available alternative that can charge at 80 amps for those of us with pending installs if we want to cancel? My build week is tomorrow

There are a couple, but they're also at least $2k:

Waltzilla:
https://www.wattzilla.com/products/waltzilla.htm

Clipper Creek:
https://store.clippercreek.com/cs-100-80-amp-ev-charging-station

IMO it's not worth the price premium unless you need 80A now-right-now. 64A seems to be working for everyone, and you can still easily charge the truck overnight (10-90%) @ 64A. Hopefully Ford/Siemens makes the update to the threshold or otherwise to bring the CSP up to a true 80A EVSE.

 

[sotek2345]

For all the electrical experts on here, do you think I will have any issues running the FCSP at 48 amps in an exterior install in Upstate NY? (Out of the sun). I am going to use the 100A circuit I installed to run the FCSP in parallel with our existing Grizzl-e set at 32A (yes, I know I will need a sub panel).

After reading all of this, I really wish Ford offered a delete option, even at a reduced cost. I would take half the price (so $650) off the truck and put it towards buying another Grizzl-e unit.

 

[PiMatrix]

For all the electrical experts on here, do you think I will have any issues running the FCSP at 48 amps in an exterior install in Upstate NY? (Out of the sun). I am going to use the 100A circuit I installed to run the FCSP in parallel with our existing Grizzl-e set at 32A (yes, I know I will need a sub panel).

After reading all of this, I really wish Ford offered a delete option, even at a reduced cost. I would take half the price (so $650) off the truck and put it towards buying another Grizzl-e unit.

48 amps seems to be nonissue. The resistive self heating factors likely the issue should be 36% what they are at 80A since they go at square if current. Even in 60 A range seems to be ok. Direct sun in Arizona might be a different answer but out of sun should be enough margin in NY. One person in another thread reported no issue on north facing wall outdoors. I know some chargers the cable can get quite warm so if this is case with FCP might not be good to spool the excess cable around the charger. My build in 3.5 weeks, no car yet, so not sure if that is a factor.

 

[FlasherZ]

For all the electrical experts on here, do you think I will have any issues running the FCSP at 48 amps in an exterior install in Upstate NY? (Out of the sun). I am going to use the 100A circuit I installed to run the FCSP in parallel with our existing Grizzl-e set at 32A (yes, I know I will need a sub panel).

After reading all of this, I really wish Ford offered a delete option, even at a reduced cost. I would take half the price (so $650) off the truck and put it towards buying another Grizzl-e unit.

I don't think I can answer that question. Should it be safe? Yes. But will the Siemens software cause problems? That I can't tell. The unit is sealed, it's black except for the gray bezel (which will fall off before a year is up if it's outside), and direct sunlight is pretty effective at heating things up. To clarify, I don't think the electrical characteristics of the appliance will cause problems, but direct sunlight on a black plastic chamber with no ventilation holes may.

My opinion - and purely opinion at this point without any empirical evidence - is that the unit isn't constructed to last in four-seasons exterior installs. I'm sure it will work initially, and it's a sealed enclosure. It is built with even less sturdiness than those commercial chargers you find out in the wild that no longer have bezels, have plastic pieces all broken out of them, etc. I would definitely not trust it on a pole in the middle of a driveway - perhaps on the north side of a building under eaves or an overhang it'd last longer and operate cooler, although I'd imagine the plastic will be incredibly brittle in colder weather.

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