100% charged by Airport valet upon drop off, unrequested. Now what? 🤔🤣

[PungoteagueDave]

source:

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries

more light reading for your flight back:

https://batteryuniversity.com/articles

Not applicable to Lightning. It is impossible to charge a Lightning battery to 100%. The BMS does not allow it. You can only charge to 131 kWh, while the total battery size is 143.3 kWh, so in reality the maximum charge is only to 91% of battery capacity. To OP's original question, you have no issue.

 

[Maxx]

Not applicable to Lightning. It is impossible to charge a Lightning battery to 100%. The BMS does not allow it. You can only charge to 131 kWh, while the total battery size is 143.3 kWh, so in reality the maximum charge is only to 91% of battery capacity. To OP's original question, you have no issue.

It does apply to lightning and every other device with the same type of battery. The chart shows loss for 40% and 100%. You can extrapolate 91% at different temperatures for one year. I doubt he is going to leave it at the airport for one year. The point of sharing this was for him to judge how insignificant the impact is on his own instead of taking everyone’s word for it by just telling him don’t worry about it. The rules of how these batteries behave does not change because of BMS.

All that said, I agree with your point that Ford does not want a big warranty expense on it’s hands and would not make it easy for us to screw it up.

Edit: If it had no impact, Ford wouldn’t recommend charging to 80%. That is why he is worried. The question is how much impact and in my opinion the reference material above does a good job in giving us some idea how much which is not much for a few days.

 

[RickLightning]

It does apply to lightning and every other device with the same type of battery. The chart shows loss for 40% and 100%. You can extrapolate 91% at different temperatures for one year. I doubt he is going to leave it at the airport for one year. The point of sharing this was for him to judge how insignificant the impact is on his own instead of taking everyone’s word for it by just telling him don’t worry about it. The rules of how these batteries behave does not change because of BMS.

All that said, I agree with your point that Ford does not want a big warranty expense on it’s hands and would not make it easy for us to screw it up.

Edit: If it had no impact, Ford wouldn’t recommend charging to 80%. That is why he is worried. The question is how much impact and in my opinion the reference material above does a good job in giving us some idea how much.

Ford doesn't recommend charging to 80%, for anything (except DC fast charging and that's just because of charging speed being so slow).

 

[Pioneer74]

Not applicable to Lightning. It is impossible to charge a Lightning battery to 100%. The BMS does not allow it. You can only charge to 131 kWh, while the total battery size is 143.3 kWh, so in reality the maximum charge is only to 91% of battery capacity. To OP's original question, you have no issue.

The extra capacity is split between the upper and lower limit.

 

[Maxx]

Ford doesn't recommend charging to 80%, for anything (except DC fast charging and that's just because of charging speed being so slow).

I think I heard Farley mention that in an interview. I don’t remember which one. But Ford manual clearly states “when you park your vehicle for extended period of 30 days or more, we recommend your battery to be at an approximately 50% state of charge”. The point is leaving it at high SOC is not good for battery. The higher the SOC and the longer the time, the worse it’s impact. It is not a binary thing that nothing bad is going happen to battery bellow 91% and everything bad will happen above.

 

[RickLightning]

I think I heard Farley mention that in an interview. I don’t remember which one. But Ford manual clearly states “when you park your vehicle for extended period of 30 days or more, we recommend your battery to be at an approximately 50% state of charge”. The point is leaving it at high SOC is not good for battery. The higher the SOC and the longer the time, the worse it’s impact. It is not a binary thing that nothing bad is going happen to battery bellow 91% and everything bad will happen above.

You're talking about 2 different things.

If you're leaving the vehicle for 30+ days, you leave it at 50%.

If you're charging daily, you charge to "less than 100%" or "90%", depending on what version of which Ford vehicle's manual you have.

2022/2023 Mach-E - 90%
2022/23 Lightning - less than 100%

 

[Maxx]

You're talking about 2 different things.

If you're leaving the vehicle for 30+ days, you leave it at 50%.

If you're charging daily, you charge to "less than 100%" or "90%", depending on what version of which Ford vehicle's manual you have.

2022/2023 Mach-E - 90%
2022/23 Lightning - less than 100%

It is all the same. The reason daily charge numbers are higher is that the amount of time that is expected to stay at that SOC is lower. Not because it is AC charging. If you are charging overnight and hit 90% at 7 AM and leave the house at 7:30. Get to office at 50% SOC and return home at 10%, and do this Monday through Friday, the impact is much less than leaving your vehicle at airport at 90% on Monday and pick it up on Friday (Ignoring the impact of cycling the battery).

General principal stays the same: size of the difference between electrons on two sides of the battery multiplied by the time for that difference determines how much damage it does to what separates them.

Ford needs to make it simple for us by putting some numbers out there that applies to the most people for most situations but if we understand where those numbers come from, we can better judge how variations in circumstances will impact those numbers instead of just blindly following the manual.

I am not sure how much of a difference there is between Ford and Rivian battery chemistry but Rivian recommends 70% SOC daily charging. I plan to keep my truck for a long time and I am starting with a standard battery so playing it safe may be more important to me than others.

When I charge my battery, I don’t drain it immediately. It takes me at least a week to need to charge it again. So mine operates between 20%-80% where most of battery time is spent at 30%-70%.

It all comes down to how much inconvenience any of these practices impose on the owner vs how much damage or benefit. If someone trades their truck every three years, even talking about it here for them does more damage than charging to 100% every day. For me 80% normal charge and 90% weekend poses no inconvenience at all. I may report back in 15 years to see how much capacity I have left (if the battery has not exploded by then).

 

[tls]

so the airport parking lot valet probably thought they were doing me a solid by plugging in my Lightning after I dropped it off this morning….

despite me asking them specifically not to charge it….

so to my Surprise the Ford app just alerted me to having achieved a 100% charge.

And I won’t be driving for quite a while now.

I certainly don’t want to ask them to take it out for a Ferris Bueller ride around town to burn off some energy…

How much damage is this causing?

Do I need to hatch a plan to have someone in the family spring it out of the lot, or just leave it be and not worry about it ?

best intentions I’m sure,
but ugh……not what I wanted to discover from 40,000 feet up

Not much damage. But you can draw the battery down very easily - just set several departure times per day in the app and tell it you want the car "warm" for all of them. When you hit a safe and sane 90% charge, turn the departure times off.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

It does apply to lightning and every other device with the same type of battery. The chart shows loss for 40% and 100%. You can extrapolate 91% at different temperatures for one year. I doubt he is going to leave it at the airport for one year. The point of sharing this was for him to judge how insignificant the impact is on his own instead of taking everyone’s word for it by just telling him don’t worry about it. The rules of how these batteries behave does not change because of BMS.

All that said, I agree with your point that Ford does not want a big warranty expense on it’s hands and would not make it easy for us to screw it up.

Edit: If it had no impact, Ford wouldn’t recommend charging to 80%. That is why he is worried. The question is how much impact and in my opinion the reference material above does a good job in giving us some idea how much which is not much for a few days.

There is no 80% recommendation from Ford - the official word is 90% - but when you hear 80% (such as from Elon Musk or Ford execs off-the-cuff), it is just belt-and-suspenders on top of the 9% reserve they build into the BMS management process. Ford is WAY too conservative on this recommendation and they know it, are about to revise it. How do I know? A very good internal source. I wouldn't;'t rely on that either, but trust me, impeccable, high level, in engineering.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

The extra capacity is split between the upper and lower limit.

Batteries don't "know" upper and lower. When you fill to 91%, it is 91% full.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

It is all the same. The reason daily charge numbers are higher is that the amount of time that is expected to stay at that SOC is lower. Not because it is AC charging. If you are charging overnight and hit 90% at 7 AM and leave the house at 7:30. Get to office at 50% SOC and return home at 10%, and do this Monday through Friday, the impact is much less than leaving your vehicle at airport at 90% on Monday and pick it up on Friday (Ignoring the impact of cycling the battery).

General principal stays the same: size of the difference between electrons on two sides of the battery multiplied by the time for that difference determines how much damage it does to what separates them.

Ford needs to make it simple for us by putting some numbers out there that applies to the most people for most situations but if we understand where those numbers come from, we can better judge how variations in circumstances will impact those numbers instead of just blindly following the manual.

I am not sure how much of a difference there is between Ford and Rivian battery chemistry but Rivian recommends 70% SOC daily charging. I plan to keep my truck for a long time and I am starting with a standard battery so playing it safe may be more important to me than others.

When I charge my battery, I don’t drain it immediately. It takes me at least a week to need to charge it again. So mine operates between 20%-80% where most of battery time is spent at 30%-70%.

It all comes down to how much inconvenience any of these practices impose on the owner vs how much damage or benefit. If someone trades their truck every three years, even talking about it here for them does more damage than charging to 100% every day. For me 80% normal charge and 90% weekend poses no inconvenience at all. I may report back in 15 years to see how much capacity I have left (if the battery has not exploded by then).

charging in a tight range consistently, without ever stressing the upper and lower ends of the range will cause your BMS to lose track of both the upper and lower set points and therefore the total capacity. This throws off the guess-o-meter, but not actual capacity. Your battery will appear to lose overall range, but won;t actually do so. For this reason, Tesla has a documented (on screen, hidden, but a few techie types have cracked it so the process is now out there) process that intentionally runs the battery to near zero, then to 100%. A service center typically runs this ince, but can do so three times in succession. The process does two things - it rebalances the battery's cells, and re-educates the BMS about its subject matter - high and low end, overall capacity/range. The process does not impact battery life. The best advice i ever received from a Tesla tech was to run the battery like a rented mule - and to fully charge, not be afraid to run it near empty. I had reasons to do both almost weekly, with houses about 200 miles part, so near limits in winter, saw nearly zero range loss in 260k miles driving three Teslas over a 9 year period.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Not much damage. But you can draw the battery down very easily - just set several departure times per day in the app and tell it you want the car "warm" for all of them. When you hit a safe and sane 90% charge, turn the departure times off.

Zero "damage". Wasteful.

 

[Maxx]

charging in a tight range consistently, without ever stressing the upper and lower ends of the range will cause your BMS to lose track of both the upper and lower set points and therefore the total capacity. This throws off the guess-o-meter, but not actual capacity. Your battery will appear to lose overall range, but won;t actually do so. For this reason, Tesla has a documented (on screen, hidden, but a few techie types have cracked it so the process is now out there) process that intentionally runs the battery to near zero, then to 100%. A service center typically runs this ince, but can do so three times in succession. The process does two things - it rebalances the battery's cells, and re-educates the BMS about its subject matter - high and low end, overall capacity/range. The process does not impact battery life. The best advice i ever received from a Tesla tech was to run the battery like a rented mule - and to fully charge, not be afraid to run it near empty. I had reasons to do both almost weekly, with houses about 200 miles part, so near limits in winter, saw nearly zero range loss in 260k miles driving three Teslas over a 9 year period.

I have heard this recommendation for the reason you mentioned but as an occasional practice not a regular one. I will definitely do this once in a while. Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[Pioneer74]

Batteries don't "know" upper and lower. When you fill to 91%, it is 91% full.

91% isn't 91% when you can't discharge to 0. Our usable capacity is in the middle of the available capacity, not the lower end.

 

[astricklin]

Batteries don't "know" upper and lower. When you fill to 91%, it is 91% full.

There is an upper and lower voltage limit, so yes they do know. If 100% on the truck is actually only 95% on the battery, then 91% on the truck is NOT 91% on the battery. If 100% isn't actually 100% , then logically 91% will never be actually 91%.

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