Generac 6852 Transfer Switch installed (to power my house from the Pro Power 240V plug)

[wautard1]

Does that TS switch the neutral? If not, that’s your problem.

This TS works with the lightning, according to this thread.

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[Henry Ford]

It faults as soon as I plug in the cord to the truck even with all breakers off.
This has been extremely frustrating because the Generac documentation is very minimal at anything to do with troubleshooting.

I've had this exact issue. I'm going to do my best to go through the steps to identify the problem below but it's possible I miss a step since I'm going by memory, which is not good. Be safe. Don't test a hot panel. Assume it's hot until you confirm it's not. You are testing for continuity, not current. Anyway...

The problem is there's a neutral touching ground somewhere when the switch is in the Generator Power position. It's that simple. You need to figure out where that is happening.

1. Make sure you lifted the correct neutral wires from your main panel. It would be an easy mistake to make to reroute the wrong wire, especially if your panel was full, like mine was.

2. Test continuity between the neutral bus and the ground bus in the switch panel with the switch in the Generator Power position. There should be no continuity.

3. If there's continuity between the ground bus and neutral bus in the switch panel, lift individual neutral wires from the neutral bus and test continuity between the individual neutral wire and the ground bus. There should be no continuity.

4. If you identify a circuit with continuity to the ground bus you have isolated the circuit where neutral and ground are touching. Figure out exactly what outlets/lights/etc. are on that circuit and start investigating. Unplug everything on the circuit and test again. If you still can't find it start inspecting outlets, light hookups, and whatever else is hooked up to that circuit. That's how I discovered a miswired fireplace fan.

If you are brave enough to face internet scrutiny, post photos of your installation here. If there's something that's screwed up it will be identified and you can address it.

Good luck! It's frustrating but if you are methodical, thorough, and safe you'll figure it out and be happy with the switch when it's put back together.

 

[Henry Ford]

Start with all of the breakers off. Turn on one at a time until it faults.

The breakers only switch the hot wire on and off. He needs to figure out where neutral and ground are touching so switching a breaker doesn't really help.

I went through this last winter. It is maddening for someone who's not a professional. It's manageable though. I'm eager to hear what @wautard1 issue is.

 

[Henry Ford]

Originally thought it was due to shared neutral circuits I have but sounds like you have those as well but the system still works.

I just reread your initial post. What do you mean by "shared neutral circuits?" If you have circuits sharing neutrals that aren't all on the switch panel this is almost certainly your problem.

 

[wautard1]

I just reread your initial post. What do you mean by "shared neutral circuits?" If you have circuits sharing neutrals that aren't all on the switch panel this is almost certainly your problem.

First, I found the 2 circuits with the ground fault. Interestingly, they share an entry into the main panel but don’t look to be touching. Currently tracking down what is on those circuits.

I have circuits that share a neutral, red, black, white. They were hooked up to separate breakers, black on one, red on another, white in neutral bar. They power different things. I originally thought this was the issue.

I’ll report back with the ground fault results.

 

[wautard1]

@Henry Ford thanks for the assistance with the steps. Helped me clear my head and focus. Truck is now powering my house but without the ground fault circuit. Still need to figure out what is causing.

 

[cdherman]

I just reread your initial post. What do you mean by "shared neutral circuits?" If you have circuits sharing neutrals that aren't all on the switch panel this is almost certainly your problem.

Usually a "shared neutral" circuit is in reference to the old use of three wire (RED/Black/White/ground) to run TWO circuits. Was economical and since the red and the black were on opposite legs, the neutral did not get overloaded. (If you or some idiot later moved the wires to the same leg inside the box, then sparks could fly)

This is safe and will not cause a problem per se. But you cannot use a traditional single pole GFCI with either of the two circuits since the share the neutral. Thus modern code prohibits shared neutral circuits today. FYI, you CAN protect those two circuits from ground fault -- by using an appropriately sized 240V double pole GFCI. But they are expensive and to my knowledge, cannot be have as AFI/GFI, thus again why NOT to do new construction with shared neutrals.

Oh -- and shared neutral circuits do NOT have ground and neutral bonded when done correctly. They should not interfere with the GFI of the Lightning.

 

[cdherman]

You have to: (presuming your Solark is set Limited to Load).
1. Remove the ground pin from the cord running to the truck (this stops the GFCI from tripping).
2. Turn off time of use under system work mode.
3. Turn on Gen Charge under Battery Settings, limit to 70 amps (keep in mind this is referring to amps @ 51.7v not 240---really confusing).
4. Cut power from grid.
5. Gen Force under Battery Settings.
6. Wait about a minute, then it will cut in.
7. It picks up house load first, then whatever excess charges the battery.

Interesting how little condemnation or comment this engendered when it was written. Pulling the ground pin sounds pretty radical. Certainly not recommended. Now it the setting of a Hybrid AIO (All in One) inverter like the Sol-Arc, in reality, not much is left ungrounded. The truck and a few feet of cable from the 240V truck plug to the Sol-Arc. Remember that the world worked OK for a long time with ungrounded circuits. Lots of old houses still have them. In a safe, quality environment, they are safe. They are NOT FORGIVING. Deviate from safe and you get bad juju.....

So, my Lighting, not yet arrived, will go into service at a sprawling farm in western KS. It already has a large 240v, 200A transfer switch which is right after the meter, before any loads or subs. There are multiple panels and sub-panels. I tend to think that there are multiple instances of bonded neutrals, since much was done by my less than professional family as well as the local electricians who were pretty much self taught. They can be trusted with electricity but this bonding of neutral being bad only really came out in the 1990s. NEC forbade it in 1999 AFAIK. I am dealing with panels and sub-panels from the 1960's, 70's, 80's etc....

Someone help me think: Just how dangerous is leaving cable "ungrounded" and thus disabling the GFI feature? The downstream circuits are all grounded, probably excessively, in terms of neutral bonding. I have no concerns about the system (well, I have modest concerns, but they have nothing to do with the Lightning!)

An ungrounded 240V connection to a genset switch. It will work. How dangerous? Describe the fault that would be a problem. Truck parked in a dry indoor space. 10 ft of cord the the genset transfer plug (we did not hard wire, to keep the generator/welder portable)

-- I am thinking the danger would be from an internal fault in the vehicle wiring. So as to allow current to reach the truck chassis. BUT, that should still be detected by the GFI on the truck, right? Since pulling the ground on the transfer cable plug really just takes away the GFI downstream to that connection. What's the counter argument?

 

[TaxmanHog]

Interesting how little condemnation or comment this engendered when it was written. Pulling the ground pin sounds pretty radical. Certainly not recommended.

That piqued my interest when he stated it, but it was within the process of trying to eliminate which of his circuits was the culprit, hopefully he resolves the matter and resumes a ~safer~ operation that this entire thread is all about, plenty of good advice given on rooting out the problem, but lets not let work arounds remain operational after the fixes are made.

 

[cdherman]

That piqued my interest when he stated it, but it was within the process of trying to eliminate which of his circuits was the culprit, hopefully he resolves the matter and resumes a ~safer~ operation that this entire thread is all about, plenty of good advice given on rooting out the problem, but lets not let work arounds remain operational after the fixes are made.

I do not think eopiela had the slightest intent of "elimination" in that post. It was how to use the Lightning into the generator port of what is called a "hybrid" or "All in One" solar inverter. The AIO units perform a pretty tall task when functioning correctly. They can use solar or batteries to power your loads, but also pass through grid power if your batteries are depleted and its dark. Or they can ask a generator to power on (only gen sets with appropriate circuitry). And when they really get it right, all that stuff is highly programable as to when and how it happens.

The Sol-Ark is UL listed. So its generator input is likely to be pretty standard. As eopiela notes in one of his posts, plugging in the Lighting to the generator input results in the Sol-Arc passing though the lightning capacity to the loads on the Sol-Arc, and when available, it will charge the batteries attached to the Sol-Arc.

I am hopeful eopelia is still lurking around, as a user with a Sol-Arc and Lightning would be golden to me.

I think there are many situations where the GFI of the Lightning is just going to be too cumbersome to accept. Question is just what are the dangers of defeating it? Its not clear, by the way that this is a "code" discussion. Many of you do indeed need to live strictly by the rules or what ever the local authority enforces. Some of us are kind of in the wild west where its a series of trade offs..... Discerning "super safe idiot proof" versus "safe enough" gets to be a challenge.

And no, I never in my life, hooked a generator up to load panel without a proper disconnect. Honest. Bad juju, lawsuits, dead linemen etc.....

 

[Maquis]

Usually a "shared neutral" circuit is in reference to the old use of three wire (RED/Black/White/ground) to run TWO circuits. Was economical and since the red and the black were on opposite legs, the neutral did not get overloaded. (If you or some idiot later moved the wires to the same leg inside the box, then sparks could fly)

This is safe and will not cause a problem per se. But you cannot use a traditional single pole GFCI with either of the two circuits since the share the neutral. Thus modern code prohibits shared neutral circuits today. FYI, you CAN protect those two circuits from ground fault -- by using an appropriately sized 240V double pole GFCI. But they are expensive and to my knowledge, cannot be have as AFI/GFI, thus again why NOT to do new construction with shared neutrals.

Oh -- and shared neutral circuits do NOT have ground and neutral bonded when done correctly. They should not interfere with the GFI of the Lightning.

All good info with one exception. What we’re calling a “shared neutral circuit” (the term electricians more commonly use is “multi-wire branch circuit”) is not currently prohibited by the NEC.

There are a good way to save on copper and labor when 2 circuits are need in close proximity, but they are employed less and less in new construction for the reasons you state.

 

[Lightning Rod]

It faults as soon as I plug in the cord to the truck even with all breakers off.
This has been extremely frustrating because the Generac documentation is very minimal at anything to do with troubleshooting.

Does that TS switch the neutral? If not, that’s your problem.

My electricians installed my Generac 6852 30A TS and I am getting the same results. The truck immediately faults when we go to use the backup feature. Someone on this site said that it's just a simple rewiring of the grounds/neutrals. I hope that they can just rewire it and get it to work. They are coming back out this afternoon.

 

[carys98]

My electricians installed my Generac 6852 30A TS and I am getting the same results. The truck immediately faults when we go to use the backup feature. Someone on this site said that it's just a simple rewiring of the grounds/neutrals. I hope that they can just rewire it and get it to work. They are coming back out this afternoon.

Mine will often fault when the solenoid fires to throw the switch. If I reset it then it runs fine. It will even fault when I throw the switch to go back to grid power. I think the solenoid is inducing enough voltage on the ground to cause the fault. Have you tried resetting the ProPower after the switch is complete? If that doesn’t fix it then double check that you picked the correct neutrals to match the breakers you moved. I have two circuits that enter my panel through the same strain relief and when I trace them I picked the wrong neutral the first time. It can be confusing trying to trace out the white wires in a crowded panel.

 

[Henry Ford]

I think there are many situations where the GFI of the Lightning is just going to be too cumbersome to accept. Question is just what are the dangers of defeating it? Its not clear, by the way that this is a "code" discussion. Many of you do indeed need to live strictly by the rules or what ever the local authority enforces. Some of us are kind of in the wild west where its a series of trade offs..... Discerning "super safe idiot proof" versus "safe enough" gets to be a challenge.

I think when amature electricians are dispensing advice on the internet "code" is a proven guardrail. What works for a family farm doesn't necessarily work for a weekend handyman wiring a panel for the first time.

 

[wautard1]

Updated. Officially finished with the install. Ground fault issue with some smart switches I didn’t wire up correctly.

Here is a tip for anyone wondering. The “switch” and “indicator light” only work when the HomeLink sees generator power. This causes issues when you don’t realize this and are trying to test for ground faults but also want to isolate to generator power.

Also, follow @Henry Ford s instructions above. It will help set a process up for testing.

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