Charging with 14-50 outlet in California - Issues

[dcp9142]

Thanks.

so…the false tripping is a defect in the Ford EVSE. One present in both of mine.

should I return them under warrantee then?

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[dcp9142]

Another reason to hardwire it.

I honestly don't understand the hesitation to have a professional hardwire a highly rated EVSE and be done with it.

It's the safest option and I'd rather spend a few bucks to have it done correctly and safely than go cheap with more risk. It's money well spent in my opinion.

Mentality: spend $60, 70, 80, or 90k on an electric truck...won't spend an extra $1000-2000 for the best installation.

Because when I have had hardwired EVSE’s that have failed, I couldn’t just plug in a replacement or a mobile cord. Now I’ve only been driving electric since 2011 (Volt then, Tesla since 2013) so I might not be representative. However, I’ve had 3 EVSE go south in that time.

And I spent $5,900 for the current install. It’s not correct that it was about saving cost of hardwire.

Anybody want the Chargestation Pro that’s arriving soon? I have no use for V2H, and absolutely no use for a station with a CCS2 connector rather than a J1772

 

[greenne]

Because when I have had hardwired EVSE’s that have failed, I couldn’t just plug in a replacement or a mobile cord. Now I’ve only been driving electric since 2011 (Volt then, Tesla since 2013) so I might not be representative. However, I’ve had 3 EVSE go south in that time.

And...it's just as likely your 14-50 plug will go bad in the same time period(or sooner) and need to be replaced. But to each his own....

Please for the love of humanity at least get a heavy duty 14-50 plug that *might* not melt. (The cheap crap at Home Supply stores are notorious for not being up to task)

The best options I've heard of is Hubbell or Bryant and are substantially more expensive than standard grade outlets.

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[Amps]

That leads me to believe something is wired incorrectly.

I spent $5,900 for the current install. It’s not correct that it was about saving cost of hardwire

A $5900 installation for a 14-50 receptacle must have been a complicated installation even at California prices. How old is the building? I hope you at least got a Hubbell or Bryant receptacle for that price.

 

[RickLightning]

People often say "if you hardwire it, you can't change to a plug" or "if you hardwire it, you need an electrician if you're moving or changing chargers".

I am not an electrician. I am not an engineer. I won't go inside a fusebox, but I do install ceiling fans, change switches, etc.

We got a 60amp circuit put in and a hardwired JuiceBox 48. I got the JB48 over the ChargePoint because I thought I might get a 2nd EV someday.

Got a 2nd EV (the Lightning). Bought a 2nd JB48. In my connection box there were 3 2-wire connectors for the JB. So, I bought 3-wire connectors of the proper spec (only needed 2).

Turned off breaker. Loosened screw on each wire, removed connector. Took new 3 wire connector, put in same 2 wires, then the new wire from the new JB. Did this twice. Used a ground wire clamp for the ground.

Borrowed a thermal gun from the library (yes, ours loans lots of tools). Read temp of wires charging at 48amps before change, and after change. No difference.

Closed box.

This is not rocket science. If I move, both chargers are going with me. Wires will be capped off, and breaker turned off and a label placed over it. Done.

 

[metroshot]

....
And I spent $5,900 for the current install. It’s not correct that it was about saving cost of hardwire.
....

$5900 ?
How long of a wire pull was that ?

Mine was hardwired for $200 plus a case of beer for my electrician buddy.

And if it stops working, I have the mobile charger and I can charge at work for free.

 

[Heliian]

Wires will be capped off, and breaker turned off and a label placed over it. Done.

As long as there is a wallbox you can cover after.

But ya, my recommendation is do both.
When your hard-wired evse fails, just plug in backup evse.

Also, not all gfci are created equal. They have various ratings for current threshold.

Ford recommends a 50a gfci for the 32a mobile power cord.

 

[hturnerfamily]

none of this does any good for those who want a MOBILE charging option - you can't 'hardwire' a mobile charger to take with you.

 

[viennaxmas]

There is a multitude of issues: NEC code has become very "expensive" when it comes to breakers. AFCI or combination breakers almost everywhere, GFCI required in many places. While I agree in some places, others are just adding lots of cost. AFCI/GFCI breakers cost 5-0x the price of a normal breaker.
I am surprised they do not require AFCI for EV chargers or the outlets. This would have certainly avoided some of the connector/plug meltdowns.
Then, a GFCI is a protection device. Given the voltage and amps an EV charger uses, a GFCI should always be used, same as with bathroom outlets or any outdoor outlet. Especially if you park your car outside. If the GFCI trips, it is for a reason and the reason should be found. This can include a faulty GFCI, I have had a few of those.

DIY installs is a question of comfort and the right tools. A torque screwdriver is one thing to have at hand.

I just completed my Wallbox install today, fully hardwired (yes, I am a believer in hard wired), screws torqued to spec. But I am very comfortable around electricity and have the tools. If it breaks? I have a few charge options around me I could use. Or I just figure out a way to make it work. It is on a GFCI breaker and due to not needing a neutral, I just saved the $25 copper.

For now it is a temporary setup while we build a new garage. The garage will have wiring for 2 x 100 amp hard wired and a 4-50 outlet. Maybe a possibility to set up a charger next to the driveway. Will I use it? Not sure, but I want to be ready.


Cost: I see prices all over the place. Here is a quick breakdown of my cost. These are just the materials to give everyone a better understanding.
50A GFCI breaker: $100
60 ft THHN/THWN (3x L1, L2, Gnd): $80
PVC Conduit, 90 bends, LB's: $100
Small parts: $ 20
Wallbox (on sale) $550
Dedicated CT for power measurement: $20

Everything is set up, integrated into Home Assistant. My truck is on a railcar somewhere outside of Detroit.

 

[Henry Ford]

Thanks.

so…the false tripping is a defect in the Ford EVSE. One present in both of mine.

should I return them under warrantee then?

You have two Ford Mobile Chargers with a defect that causes a breaker to trip? How do you know this? Yesterday the issue was the California building code but today it's two bad chargers? Did you do any troubleshooting? I'm very confused.

 

[dcp9142]

You have two Ford Mobile Chargers with a defect that causes a breaker to trip? How do you know this? Yesterday the issue was the California building code but today it's two bad chargers? Did you do any troubleshooting? I'm very confused.

Well, the experts here are telling me that it’s not from the GFCI. I have used two FMC’s with the same behavior. Neither one has a problem with my other 14-50 outlet (which is wired from the older code, a normal 50 amp breaker).

It’s true, I haven’t tried my Tesla mobile or a plug-in Autel yet.

I started the thread because I think this is something worthy of reporting and figuring out.

I will continue to work with my electrician though.

 

[dcp9142]

$5900 ?
How long of a wire pull was that ?

Mine was hardwired for $200 plus a case of beer for my electrician buddy.

And if it stops working, I have the mobile charger and I can charge at work for free.

my 200 amp service was maxed out. In addition to the 14-50, I was adding a pair of 6-15s for power tools.

So—we added a thermolec 60 amp EVMS to allow adding 60 amps more load and stay within code. A lot cheaper than upgrading to a 300 amp service and full panel redo on an already complex system.

If I could have pulled new wire to the 14-30 outlet to upgrade to a 14-50 I would have been ok with that, and just one 6-15. However, it wouldn’t meet the load calculation.

As more folks go electric, they will be faced with similar issues, especially if they have 100 or -gasp- 60 amp service and panel. Or, like me, have a 3 EV family.

 

[dcp9142]

There is a multitude of issues: NEC code has become very "expensive" when it comes to breakers. AFCI or combination breakers almost everywhere, GFCI required in many places. While I agree in some places, others are just adding lots of cost. AFCI/GFCI breakers cost 5-0x the price of a normal breaker.
I am surprised they do not require AFCI for EV chargers or the outlets. This would have certainly avoided some of the connector/plug meltdowns.
Then, a GFCI is a protection device. Given the voltage and amps an EV charger uses, a GFCI should always be used, same as with bathroom outlets or any outdoor outlet. Especially if you park your car outside. If the GFCI trips, it is for a reason and the reason should be found. This can include a faulty GFCI, I have had a few of those.

DIY installs is a question of comfort and the right tools. A torque screwdriver is one thing to have at hand.

I just completed my Wallbox install today, fully hardwired (yes, I am a believer in hard wired), screws torqued to spec. But I am very comfortable around electricity and have the tools. If it breaks? I have a few charge options around me I could use. Or I just figure out a way to make it work. It is on a GFCI breaker and due to not needing a neutral, I just saved the $25 copper.

For now it is a temporary setup while we build a new garage. The garage will have wiring for 2 x 100 amp hard wired and a 4-50 outlet. Maybe a possibility to set up a charger next to the driveway. Will I use it? Not sure, but I want to be ready.


Cost: I see prices all over the place. Here is a quick breakdown of my cost. These are just the materials to give everyone a better understanding.
50A GFCI breaker: $100
60 ft THHN/THWN (3x L1, L2, Gnd): $80
PVC Conduit, 90 bends, LB's: $100
Small parts: $ 20
Wallbox (on sale) $550
Dedicated CT for power measurement: $20

Everything is set up, integrated into Home Assistant. My truck is on a railcar somewhere outside of Detroit.

Sounds like a great garage! You getting a separate 300 amp service for it?

 

[DiveMan911]

FWIW: I have a NEMA 14-50 outlet: GFCI protected at the breaker (as per code) and no issues with my FMC. That was my temporary solution while I waited for the FCSP to be installed. I completely understand the reason to have this GFCI protected-wet area and electricity don’t mix. Breakers can be finicky…has the actual breaker been replaced with a different one during the troubleshooting??

I do agree it might be a big leap to blame the EVSE, but frustrating nonetheless. Good luck.

 

[Henry Ford]

Well, the experts here are telling me that it’s not from the GFCI. I have used two FMC’s with the same behavior. Neither one has a problem with my other 14-50 outlet (which is wired from the older code, a normal 50 amp breaker).

A crossed wire would cause anything plugged into it to trip a GFCI breaker. It seems like you are assuming the breaker, wiring, and outlet are functioning properly. I don't think that's a good assumption. You should probably test all of them but the wiring is the easiest to troubleshoot and is where I would start if it were my house.

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