Degenerated into Tesla fight club

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Instead of working other manufacturers over a decade ago, Tesla decided to develop their own charging standard that slowed EV adoption and hurt both Tesla and non-Tesla EV owners.

Tesla refused to let independent shops and owners work on Tesla causing harm to both independent shop owners and Tesla owners.

Tesla refused to support independent dealerships causing harm to independent dealers.

Tesla refused to allow unions into the factories causing harm to employees and unions.

1. Tesla developed its own charging standard because none existed. As it turned out, Tesla's solution was better than the one developed by committee
2. Right to repair issues seem to be a common strategy among most manufacturers in most industries. Independent shops bear at least some responsibility for this as well. Back when transmission failed on my Saturn, none of the transmission shops wanted to work on it. One even said: "We don't work on imports". So I had to take it Saturn dealer. That wasn't GMs fault.
3. Tesla (and Rivian, and Lucid) is under no obligation to establish a dealer network. I prefer the option of having multiple service departments near me that can work on my vehicle, but Tesla's approach is not illegal and is not predatory.
4. As of today, UAW (or any other union) has not attempted to organize Tesla's plants. When and if they do, we'll see how Tesla and its employees react. Also many other auto manufacturers are non-union. That isn't generating complaints that Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, and others are predatory.

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[Zprime29]

I can sum it up in one phrase, “predatory business practices”. Here are some examples;

Instead of working other manufacturers over a decade ago, Tesla decided to develop their own charging standard that slowed EV adoption and hurt both Tesla and non-Tesla EV owners.

Tesla refused to let independent shops and owners work on Tesla causing harm to both independent shop owners and Tesla owners.

Tesla refused to support independent dealerships causing harm to independent dealers.

Tesla refused to allow unions into the factories causing harm to employees and unions.

Those "independent dealerships" are more predatory than Tesla, why are you sticking up for them?
EDIT: Also wanted to point out that the previous two UAW presidents plead GUILTY to corruption charges. So is the UAW really better than Tesla?

 

[Texas Dan]

You really have to be kidding with these reasons right? Refusing to do things old school and with government protected entities is brilliant and has paid off well for Elon.

Over a decade ago every other EV manufacture (There were no serious ones then) could have adapted Tesla's standards. Their patents have been open for most for years. He built his own charging network because no one else wanted to do it. Why wait on the govt to do it - they need to stay out of it. Elon will laugh all the way to the bank and I'm happy to pay him my share to do so vs a crooked politician.

Tesla has caused no harm to any independent shop owner. That shop owner exists because he chooses to work on GM or Ford or other brands. His shop has no clue how many millions of other cars or big trucks or tractors or side by sides are driving by that he doesn't work on, why isn't he working on those? Are you saying that someone built a 3rd party Tesla repair dealership and then went out of business because they couldn't get parts? Nope - didn't happen.

Again - Tesla caused no harm to an independent dealerships, because dealerships aren't independent. There are books full of regulations and laws that govern those models. The dealerships pay a lot of money to the brand they carry for the privilege of screwing you as a customer. Simply read about the number of predatory sales men and services shops that belong to the big names to see how much of an insider very wealthy owner they can become. Most car dealership owners are very wealthy these days.

Again - no harm to a single union. Unions have lost their way and place these days. They simply allow the union management to typically become corrupt on the backs of their members and they negotiate pay and benefits beyond the skill or job being done. I've been surprised at the number of car factories we have here and even the foreign brands that build here, but with the economy and new big wage hikes, check back in 5 to 10 years and see if there are more or less of them here. I understand being able to make a living wage for skills, but there is no skill left on an assembly line. Now the UAW doesn't even want to work 40 hours for their hourly pay, they think 32 is enough. Just check back in a few years.

Sorry to still see how many people are pissed because Elon took risks. Risks that no one else was willing to do, yet everyone has now lined up knowing he is the only one that will save the day with his charging network.

Another reason to dislike Tesla, Tesla fanboys propensity to venomously attack opinions that differ from their own.

 

[GDN]

Another reason to dislike Tesla, Tesla fanboys propensity to venomously attack opinions that differ from their own.

Show me the attack and where I’m wrong. I’m sorry you backed yourself in a corner. My 3 Tesla purchases and ownership in every case have been far superior the last 4 Ford and GM purchases I e made and owned. Including the one that the Ford dealership let get stolen off of their lot while it was in for service.

 

[The Weatherman]

So yes, Tesla is just like Apple. As much as I don't like Apple products I must admit that they simply work. Simple solution, don't buy a Tesla.

Now back on topic, does anyone have insight into if @Ford Motor Company will supply the adapter for free to existing owners? My guess is that it wouldn't end up costing Ford very much per unit and would be a great customer service move.

Seems the Jury is still out on that one. The popular thinking is it will priced around 150-200$. But hey, live in Hope or die in despair.

 

[Pioneer74]

 

[TaxmanHog]

I'd just like to say that the Y'all could just get along politely, fanboys & haters alike, this is a FORD FORUM, take that somewhere else.

 

[Texas Dan]

Those "independent dealerships" are more predatory than Tesla, why are you sticking up for them?
EDIT: Also wanted to point out that the previous two UAW presidents plead GUILTY to corruption charges. So is the UAW really better than Tesla?

I’m sticking up for choice, not any particular dealership. I will say that my favorite way to buy a car is to pick it out and drive it off the lot without having to wait months or years for delivery. Not all dealerships are bad and Tesla takes away your choice to choose between dealers.

A corrupt UAW President doesn’t diminish the value of the union to its’ members. The unions are a counter balance to predatory business practices. Even though Tesla’s employees aren’t in the union, they benefit from the union because Tesla has to compete with companies that do have union employees.

I have often said that Tesla is a trust that needed to be broken up under the antitrust laws. With Tesla losing control of the NACS standard and equipment, I believe we are seeing the start of the breakup of that trust and I would not be surprised to see much more of the trust break off. I just wish this breakup had started a long time ago.

 

[Texas Dan]

I'd just like to say that the Y'all could just get along politely, fanboys & haters alike, this is a FORD FORUM, take that somewhere else.

I wish we could. I wish that NEVI had stood up quicker and we weren’t coveting Supercharger access. I wish that Ford didn’t see a need to abandon CCS and commit to the NACS standard.

But Tesla discussions have been forced on us whether like it or not. My patience has already been worn pretty thin waiting for this adapter. Things should get better once the adapter unknowns are behind us and we have possession of the adapters.

 

[Zprime29]

I’m sticking up for choice, not any particular dealership. I will say that my favorite way to buy a car is to pick it out and drive it off the lot without having to wait months or years for delivery. Not all dealerships are bad and Tesla takes away your choice to choose between dealers.

A corrupt UAW President doesn’t diminish the value of the union to its’ members. The unions are a counter balance to predatory business practices. Even though Tesla’s employees aren’t in the union, they benefit from the union because Tesla has to compete with companies that do have union employees.

I have often said that Tesla is a trust that needed to be broken up under the antitrust laws. With Tesla losing control of the NACS standard and equipment, I believe we seeing the start of the breakup of that trust and I would not be surprised to see much more of the trust break off. I just wish this breakup had started a long time ago.

Choice is definitely a good thing, I won't debate that point. However, in a world where all automakers sell direct to customers, we still have a choice. Buy from another brand. Tesla has adjusted prices how much this year? You can correct me if I'm wrong to assume this, but it is my understanding that those price cuts are largely due to competitive pricing and less to due with overall demand for an EV. Tesla isn't the entire EV market now and they have competition, as do all the legacy automakers with their ICE offerings. We shouldn't have to shop for a vehicle 2000 miles away simply because every dealer in a 1000 mile radius has prices jacked $10k over MSRP. I'm not even exaggerating, that was my experience looking back in Feb. Every local dealer refused to come down. Buying direct from Ford would have saved hundreds of hours from folks spending time, spending money on fuel and plane tickets, and headaches from calling 20-30 dealerships trying to find a fair price. I don't think choice has worked out well for us. Take a look at Kia dealers, they're even worse. An exception here and there does not mean it's a good thing. The vast majority of people would have a more favorable experience with direct sales and I'm not even factoring in mandatory dealer add-ons.

The unions can be short sighted, how are the members going to benefit when they force the employer to raise wages and benefits so high that the company loses all competitive advantage? There's real risk with the increased pay and benefits demanded by the UAW. The big 3 are already losing a lot of money trying to transition to EV's and now they further behind the 8 ball. It won't be of much benefit if the workers' factories get shut down after the automaker decides they can't hack it anymore.

 

[GarageMahal]

NACS is already capable of switching between AC and DC, that's part of the reason why it is the superior hardware design. To my untrained mind, it seems plausible that this tech can be leveraged to route electrons to the correct CCS pins. Not arguing that the simple route is the superior route, just speculating out loud.

Tesla put the switching logic and hardware is in the car, not the plug. But yes, you can do almost anything for a price.

Thanks! This explains why we will likely need two adapters, one for AC and one for DC. I didn't realize that NACS used the same pins for both. I see that it could be done but it would be expensive (and probably large physically) to add the switching logic to the adapter itself.

 

[Monkey]

I can sum it up in one phrase, “predatory business practices”. Here are some examples;

Instead of working other manufacturers over a decade ago, Tesla decided to develop their own charging standard that slowed EV adoption and hurt both Tesla and non-Tesla EV owners.

Tesla offered to let other automakers join in. In fact they had an agreement with Ford where they were going to collaborate on the first EV truck and Ford would help contribute to build the charging network and all that. That deal fell through. When other automakers pulled away -- most of them claiming they felt they could do it better because they had decades more experience building cars, predicted Tesla would fail, etc... That all went away. This isn't a one-sided issue of Tesla shutting others out. And it's not like others couldn't have done the same. VW put up most of the funding to build the EA network, actually invested more money and man-hours into EA than Tesla did to build their charging network! But crap in = crap out. I mean, their hardware is cobbled together from off the shelf components by third-rate engineers. Even the latest 350kW stations are good for a laugh if you look at the internals vs. a Tesla supercharger. But hey, they tried, right?

Tesla refused to let independent shops and owners work on Tesla causing harm to both independent shop owners and Tesla owners.

Not a uniquely Tesla position. But this is indeed a problem... More so than the lack of Tesla certified body shops is the lack of parts availability.

Tesla refused to support independent dealerships causing harm to independent dealers.

With all due respect, fuck dealerships. I hope the dealership model dies completely, post haste. It's a relic of a bygone era and driven by slime ball salesmen with ridiculously predatory tactics. This is 100% my favorite thing about Tesla, Rivian and other new auto start-ups. My wife worked at dealerships off and on, I have family that owns dealerships. I buy lots of vehicles for business and personal use. Dealerships need to die. Even the "good ones" that have treated me fairly are still horrible. And they have had the better part of the last 100 years to stack laws and regulations in their favor and have become nearly untouchable in a legal sense.

Tesla refused to allow unions into the factories causing harm to employees and unions.

Tesla actually started as a unionized / UAW factory! The employees voted to de-unionize and take advantage of stock options and profit sharing programs they would be unable to claim under UAW contracts. I get that Tesla's unionization is always a hot issue in the media... There have been occasional reports of Tesla stifling unionization efforts, none of which have ever been substantiated even though they get tons of media sympathy. A couple pro-union actors have faced charges for their own actions while employed in Fremont. And Tesla has never failed to hold a unionization vote that has been properly requested. Even now the stuff going on with the mob-like unions in Sweden are insane. Tesla called for a unionization vote, of which only 3 (yep, just checked again, 3) employees expressed interest in unionizing there. Now all the unionized dock workers and others in contact with Tesla are refusing to offload or handle Tesla vehicles, parts and materials. That's outright extortion. But the union is a mob culture there and the unions tell businesses and the government what to do.

I'm not for or against unions specifically. Ultimately I'm pro-union and I think there are many industries that absolutely rely on unions to protect employees. However, we've been seeing a growing trend of unions not acting in the best interest of their member employees. A prime example is the rail workers union and attempted strike a year ago. Those rail workers had every right to be upset and to strike or do whatever they felt necessary to better their situation. But regardless of the outcome, half-assed deal bargained and the Biden admin shutting down the strike to keep trains rolling... The rail workers union had done their employees dirty for the past 35 years.

Oh, and Elon is on drugs. That's the only explanation I have. It goes beyond his unhinged comments that seemed to have really kicked off way back with "Pedo Guy." There was a time when he truly cared about humanity and the missions of his companies. I think he still does on some level, but he needs to make good on his promise to step down as Tesla CEO (after CyberTruck production is up and running, as he claimed), before he ruins it.

 

[TomB985]

Isn't the Tesla fight club somewhere else?

ON edit: Dammit…apparently not.

 

[Heliian]

save the day with his charging network.

I'm going on my first magic dock trip next month. Other than that, this network sharing deal is vapour and I'm not holding my breath. Nor is Ford, they are continuing to expand their charging network and partners. The more options the better.

 

[TheBigBezo]

The title change made me chuckle

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