Did Tesla get Gov't money for opening NACS? Also NEVI is disappointingly slow

[luebri]

Well you are partially wrong. Existing sites do matter as part of the program there is a mileage requirement.

So for an existing site to count it would either need to meet the requirements or if the proposal includes the site, it would need to be updated.

So while NEVI is not requiring an upgrade, if an existing site is planned to be counted in the corridor requirements, the contractor could propose it with an upgrade.

I was under the belief only brand new installs qualified. I have seen no evidence otherwise, but I could be wrong. Im 99% sure every location granted funding here in WI are brand new. Ironically the only 2 locations that Tesla was granted are within a mile or two of an existing V3 NACS supercharger, which would seem odd if they could of gotten funds via a retrofit.

Also Im fairly certain the distance between chargers calculation only considers CCS chargers so basically treating existing v3 superchargers (non magic docks) as non existent

 

[Maineiac12]

Why are we arguing this point? Does it really matter why they opened the network?

It was a smart business decision that I think we can all agree was a good thing. Elon might be a tool, but not everything he does is bad.

 

[Grease Lightning]

I was under the belief only brand new installs qualified. I have seen no evidence otherwise, but I could be wrong. Im 99% sure every location granted funding here in WI are brand new. Ironically the only 2 locations that Tesla was granted are within a mile or two of an existing V3 NACS supercharger, which would seem odd if they could of gotten funds via a retrofit.

Also Im fairly certain the distance between chargers calculation only considers CCS chargers so basically treating existing v3 superchargers (non magic docks) as non existent

In Oregon ODOT helped with the analysis and have to comply with the NEVI requirements and at the time they required CCS because NACS was an offer of a standard, but part of a closed network. With Elon opening up his network, he basically became eligible but would still need CCS, hence the magic dock SCs.

Oregon added this to their NEVi RFP to capture NACS…

So forward thinking states are trying to cover all current standards. So any NEVI site build in Oregon will have CCS, NACS and CHADEMO.

I recall Tesla was one that did submit during the RFQ.

 

[luebri]

Why are we arguing this point? Does it really matter why they opened the network?

It was a smart business decision that I think we can all agree was a good thing. Elon might be a tool, but not everything he does is bad.

It bothers me when people state incorrect information. I think facts are important and like to know what is fact and what is fiction

Im not arguing, I'm genuinely trying to find the answer.

 

[luebri]

In Oregon ODOT helped with the analysis and have to comply with the NEVI requirements and at the time they required CCS because NACS was an offer of a standard, but part of a closed network. With Elon opening up his network, he basically became eligible but would still need CCS, hence the magic dock SCs.

Oregon added this to their NEVi RFP to capture NACS…

So forward thinking states are trying to cover all current standards. So any NEVI site build in Oregon will have CCS, NACS and CHADEMO.

I recall Tesla was one that did submit during the RFQ.

Not really relevant to the discussion about NACS access via adapter, but Yes I was aware of some states doing this. Though including NACS was not a requirement in Phase 1 here in WI the vast majority have them in their site proposal. The phase 1.5 request for proposal do now require it.

 

[Maineiac12]

It bothers me when people state incorrect information. I think facts are important and like to know what is fact and what is fiction

Im not arguing, I'm genuinely trying to find the answer.

It feels like you’re offended on behalf of Tesla for some reason. I don’t get why people fanboy for companies or celebrities. These people don’t care about us, only our money. Loyalty to any company is stupid.

 

[luebri]

It feels like you’re offended on behalf of Tesla for some reason. I don’t get why people fanboy for companies or celebrities. These people don’t care about us, only our money. Loyalty to any company is stupid.

I’m Just calling balls and strikes with the info I have.

I agree with your comments 100% regarding company loyalty.

 

[electricpig]

The impediments you bring up though valid are in many ways self induced, by other areas of government waste.

You stated NEVI, and I and others have shown how that can't be concluded at this time. Just because you don't like the answer isn't my problem. Reality is different from what you stated. I'm done with you as you obviously have made up your mind and will not change it. So this is a waste of time

 

[Firn]

FYI. Inflation Reducation Act and as a part of it the NEVI program was signed into law on August 16, 2022. 2+ years. Less than 10 chargers.

Nobody is "ok" with that, we all wish it were better. We are also realists however and understand that government is SLOOOOW.

The states need to put this together and the people doing this still have their original jobs. They need to convene and generate a plan, that has to be reviewed, both by state representatives and by things like lawyers. Then there has to be time to take responses, and just because you announce something doesn't mean EVERYONE knows about it immediately. Then their will be solicitation, unless you want to government just handing they money to Joe bobs uncles cousin. Then that has to be executed, and oh yeah, there are things like budget cycles. After that there are contracts, which for "little" ones take at least 6 months of effort. Oh, and during this sites need to be arranged, unless there is a plan to put chargers on land you don't have. And then after that you have local government and regulations. You have specialized sub-contracts to venders who can do one specific component.

Yeah, we all want it to be better, but this IS the real world. This isn't two guys writing something down, putting pins in a map on the wall saying "here", and then handing a few dozen million over to their buddies.

 

[electricpig]

Nobody is "ok" with that, we all wish it were better. We are also realists however and understand that government is SLOOOOW.

The states need to put this together and the people doing this still have their original jobs. They need to convene and generate a plan, that has to be reviewed, both by state representatives and by things like lawyers. Then there has to be time to take responses, and just because you announce something doesn't mean EVERYONE knows about it immediately. Then their will be solicitation, unless you want to government just handing they money to Joe bobs uncles cousin. Then that has to be executed, and oh yeah, there are things like budget cycles. After that there are contracts, which for "little" ones take at least 6 months of effort. Oh, and during this sites need to be arranged, unless there is a plan to put chargers on land you don't have. And then after that you have local government and regulations. You have specialized sub-contracts to venders who can do one specific component.

Yeah, we all want it to be better, but this IS the real world. This isn't two guys writing something down, putting pins in a map on the wall saying "here", and then handing a few dozen million over to their buddies.

OP says those things are just self inflicted waste! Checks and balances don't matter. Just give Tesla all the money so their share price goes up.

Thing is, you absolutely don't want one dominant player. Tesla got an exemption they should not have gotten IMHO to qualify for NEVI funding. Requirements stated that chargers had to support 200-800V architecture. Well Tesla is 500V only, and so do not support the requirements. Hence the Kia/Hyundai type vehicles only get about 100kW charging on Tesla chargers.

One advantage Tesla almost certainly does have currently is that they almost certainly have a standing order pipeline for transformers of a certain model(s) making deployment for csome site quicker.With that said, I haven't seen any NEVI awarded Tesla sites go up yet either There are I think two of these in my state, and Tesla has yet to do jack squat. What's more, there are many sites approved and permitted for many months, that Tesla seems unable to fulfill in any way. Guess they aren't so perfect after all. Seems the knee jerk tantrum firing of the entire supercharger team has an actual detrimental impact after all.

 

[Maineiac12]

OP says those things are just self inflicted waste! Checks and balances don't matter. Just give Tesla all the money so their share price goes up.

Thing is, you absolutely don't one dominant player. Tesla got an exemption they should not have gotten IMHO to qualify for NEVI funding. Requirements stated that chargers had to support 200-800V architecture. Well Tesla is 500V only, and so do not support the requirements. Hence the Kia/Hyundai type vehicles only get about 100kW charging on Tesla chargers.

One advantage Tesla almost certainly does have currently is that they almost certainly have a standing order pipeline for transformers of a certain model(s) making deployment for csome site quicker.With that said, I haven't seen any NEVI awarded Tesla sites go up yet either There are I think two of these in my state, and Tesla has yet to do jack squat. What's more, there are many sites approved and permitted for many months, that Tesla seems unable to fulfill in any way. Guess they aren't so perfect after all. Seems the knee jerk tantrum firing of the entire supercharger team has an actual detrimental impact after all.

This Tesla NEVI site went online this month, so it is happening.

 

[Maineiac12]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m no Tesla fan. But their chargers are one bright spot. I know when I pull into a supercharger that it’s going to work and I can’t say that about the CCS network, unfortunately. I hope the other providers get their shit together soon.

 

[Newton]

Having worked on different types of standards for a major company, let me explain what I think Tesla opened up their charging network.

• At the moment, Tesla arguably has a monopoly on EV charging in the USA. It sounds absurd to say that in a Ford EV forum but I’m willing to bet that this statement is true under Justice Department standards. It would be no more absurd than claiming that a certain large company had a monopoly on operating systems if you really understood the operating system landscape of the time. This is a significant legal risk to Tesla even if they ultimately prevailed.
• Opening up the chargers to other EVs would probably be one of the remedies that the Justice department would demand in lieu of breaking up Tesla. It was pretty clear that this would happen eventually, better to do it when they have control and can charge money to the other automakers. In my opinion they have slow walked the roll out perfectly, just enough to take the issue off of the table but not enough to really affect their monopoly.
• In my opinion, Tesla was at an inflection point with their proprietary standard. The government was just about to invest a huge amount of money into CCS chargers that directly competed with their chargers and indirectly competed with their cars. I think they opened up their standard at just about the right time to maximize the value of their monopoly and kill the competing system. If they had waited any longer they would have ended up being the car with the weird charging port (see Nissan/CHAdeMO).
• Tesla got a cash infusion of unknown size from the other companies to do this.
• Tesla managed to “Osborne effect” (google it) everybody else - a significant number of people are not buying CCS cars because they are waiting for NACS. Ford fell into this trap. I can’t believe that they relied on Tesla to supply adapters that allow Ford to compete with the Cybertruck. A five-year-old could tell you what would happen.

Remember, Tesla considers themselves a tech company so all of the management is very famIliar with the events of 1998 and - crucially - the effects on the stock price of the affected company.

 

[potato]

This Tesla NEVI site went online this month, so it is happening.

I thought NEVI sites had to work with CCS. That screenshot says adapter required.

 

[chl]

---- edit to encourage actual discussion on the matter -----

I have heard others state that the only reason Tesla opened up v3 NACS Supercharger access was to get Gov't money? This is frustrating to me because I have seen no evidence or reporting of this and do not believe it to be true.

Has Tesla received Gov't money for some programs? Yes, but not for the opening of NACS V3 chargers via a bring your own adapter

Another thread on this forum this was being discussed before it was shut down for a reason I am unsure of.

Also as I thru in, NEVI is an inneffecient mess.

--------

---- original post -----
I wont elaborate too deeply because if I do the ADMINS on this forum will resort to 2020 style censorship.

Since there are so many Tesla / Musk haters on this forum I would like a factual sourced based discussion (with sources) on how much TESLA has or has not gotten and how efficient they have been with that money vs other charge point operators specially for government subsidized L3 charge point operation.

Hard to answer some of your questions, but some of that of is probably available from the DOE web site. This is what a simple google search found - the search was:

"did tesla get government money for chargers"

Some of the results were from Reuters and Politico (good reliable sources) and they refer to getting money for super chargers and charging stations and Tesla standard plugs.

" June 9 (Reuters) - The White House on Friday said electric-vehicle charging stations using Tesla (TSLA.O), opens new tab standard plugs would be eligible for billions of dollars in federal subsidies as long as they included the U.S. charging standard connection, CCS, as well. ..."

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/wh...ral-dollars-long-they-include-ccs-2023-06-09/

"Tesla is installing more charging plazas than any other company funded by Biden’s 2021 bipartisan infrastructure law, according to an exclusive analysis of public records for POLITICO’s E&E News by the data consulting firm EVAdoption. Tesla has won almost 13 percent of all EV charging awards from the law, earning it a total of more than $17 million in infrastructure grants. ...
The government funding will effectively embed Tesla’s distinctively shaped red-and-white chargers into the experience of not just Tesla drivers, but of all EV users on America’s highways. It is a win for Tesla, but also a form of capitulation: By agreeing to build federally funded stations, the iconoclastic company is also agreeing to play by the same rules as everyone else....

Tesla is taking a different tack than other firms seeking the federal infrastructure money. First, it is proposing stations that are bigger than what other companies are building....

At the same time, Tesla is putting fewer of its resources on the line in its efforts to win federal dollars. Many states have tried to entice charging companies to pay for a higher percentage of the cost of building each station than the federal government requires. More than other firms, Tesla has refused to do so, meaning states have to pick up more of the tab....

Tesla, which has no public relations department, did not respond to a request for comment for this story.

Musk has been silent on the role of federal aid in building his company’s Supercharger stations..."

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/27/tesla-biden-electric-car-charging-00143431

See also: https://www.investopedia.com/tesla-opens-charging-network-to-competitors-7110151
Tesla to Open U.S. Charging Network, Reaping Federal Subsidies

The EV maker will allow rival brands to use at least 7,500 of its domestic chargers, including 3,500 Superchargers, by the end of next year... The leading domestic maker of electric vehicles has committed to making at least 7,500 chargers in its network universally accessible by the end of 2024, the White House said. That's to include at least 3,500 fast-charging Superchargers located along highways and a minimum of 4,000 slower 'Destination Chargers' at locations like hotels and restaurants.


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I am not a Tesla hater - but I am not a fan of the Cybertruck or Musk, the person, though, lol.

To each his own.

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